Salem Witch Trial
Most astrologers will have to deal with harassment from skeptics in their lives. If skeptics or trolls contaminate an astrologers website it is not pleasant but easily fixed, just delete and ban them.
What is more unpleasant and not so easy to deal with is skeptics slandering and ridiculing the work of an astrologer on their own website. We have less control over this situation. Should we react or let the public slander go unchallenged?
Historically astrologers have just copped the punishment. Most of the Celtic Druids were slaughtered on the Isle of Angelsey in AD 60. The Roman Catholic Inquisitions and witch hunts by other institutionalized lynch mobs put countless astrologers in prison or led to their torture and often death
. It’s not surprising given the 2000 years of persecution that astrologers tend to be a little defensive when faced with personal attacks from skeptics these days.
Astrology is no longer a heresy punishable by death. We are free to study our craft and If we chose we can make it our profession and try to make a living from it. In much the same way as a naturopath is free to study and make a profession out of herbal medicine. If a naturopath has a website as a shopfront to share information and solicit business, they would not take kindly to skeptics defaming their reputation on other websites, in a public forum.
In the last few days our website has been defamed and ridiculed by some skeptics. They linked to my blog about the oil spill so I became aware of it via the ping-back. I commented on that blog saying it would have been more polite for them to have commented on my blog. I debated with them for a while and invited them to comment on something specific about my work, on my blog, instead of trying to disprove astrology in general.
Should I have ignored the slanderous blog? Deepwater Horizon foretold by astrology!!! (Well, post-told). Well I did feed the trolls which has led to If it smells like Funk, it must be astrology and People braver than I with choice quotes like “astrology is so obviously ridiculous that I don’t think I’d have the patience to deal with the peddlers of such trash”, “obvious fakery” and “making shit up and dressing it up as reality”.
True it would not have escalated if I had not reacted. They are not burning me at the stake, but it is a psychological attack and it is also an attack on how I make my living. I guess that is why I reacted, I don’t want to lay down an take the insults. Astrology is a legitimate profession and we should be proud of our craft and our history, many thousands of years as an integral part of society in all cultures. Something strong inside me doesn’t want to let the skeptics get away with continuing the persecution.
That original attack on my oil spill was posted less than one day after the recent solar eclipse which fell right on my Descendant, ruler of one-to-one relationships which included close allies such as the partner, and also open enemies. Fortunately my Descendant is sextile Jupiter by just 6 minutes. The solar eclipse was sextile Mars in the sky, and Mars was conjunct my Jupiter. That explains why I went wanted to fight.
I understand where you come and I appreciate your views and insights. I also feel that at this time of great shifting and challenges… it brings out the greatest sense of who you really are vs what you do. So who are you? are you astrology or is astrology something that you do so beautifully, in my view?
Think about this before engaging in the negative energies of the skeptics. They are only helping you grow into the better aspect of you.
I am a psychic/ intuitive life coach and have had many challenges in just saying what I do, though I am intuitive and won’t back down to that true innate essence of Self. I am who I am…
Recently I got tangled in an argument about the oppression of women with a “man rules” sort of guy. After a few exchanges, I realized the conversation was going to escalate and the fellow was very invested in his opinion- so I did an Aikido move and just send. ” I send you love and good fortune. Best.” His defenses suddenly dropped and he said thanks you and I let the conversation go even though, I myself, had plenty of argument left in me.
Another example is when I was studying at Barbara Brennan’s School of Healing and it was family visiting day. A family member asked how she dealt with skeptics. She said she had too much work to do and her work was not to convince skeptics. Skeptics could think whatever they wanted.
Obviously a lot of people know nothing about astrology and they have an investment in being a “pain in the ass” – for whatever reason. Let them be and keep doing your work.
Today there are so many great astrologers and the body of work has grown strong. Keep doing the work. Don’t waste your breath on convincing people. It’s like refusing to do healing with someone who doesn’t want healing or who just wants to see a parlor trick so they can throw stones for any reason. Don’t waste your time. Focus on your work and the open audience.
As both Jenn and Margaret pointed out, I absolutely would have let the matter drop with nary a single mention of your names (and you’ll note, the original article sneering at the idea of using astrology to “predict”, after the fact, why Deepwater Horizon exploded, didn’t contain the name Jamie Funk anywhere on it until Jamie posted). I also didn’t think there was much to debate about — we have a difference of opinion, in that I believe astrology is bunkum, he believes it has value. It was his personal pride and conflating my sneering at astrology with sneering at his personal skills at it, that led to the escalation.
I’m not persecuting, I have no intention of carrying out an inquisition, and I’m certainly not hunting for heretics as I don’t personally hold to ANY dogma, much less a dogmatic belief in science without evidence. I mean, if you want to carry out the argument, I work well in either the mode where we discuss astrology, or we throw personal insults at each other (e.g. when Jamie called me a coward), so if you must cast me as an inquisitor rather than a warm and genuine human being with a difference of opinion, then do what you must to muster the courage to fight.
That said, after I post one last pointer to this thread and a cross-post of this comment, I have every intention of letting the matter drop, if you have no intentions of addressing my arguments in lousycanuck.ca/?p=3898
(That post, by the by, was written for this blog first, and cross-posted at my blog in case something untoward happened to it, like getting lost in a spam filter or getting reduced to merely a link. Cross-posting is not merely cut-and-pasting, but writing something intended to be posted in two places simultaneously.)
Just say “astrology must be taken on faith” and we part ways. You have my word.
Great advice Jenn. This has been a great learning experience for me and I have been forced to think about who I am and what I do. It has clarified things for me. I definitely feel the growth you mentioned.
I know you are right on this Margaret, and Marina has been telling me the same thing. I felt I had to engage on this occasion because I initially ignored it and tried doing some work but could not focus. There was a couple of projects I was working on but couldn’t think clearly enough to put a blog out because of the nagging irritation I felt.
Looking at the aspects that solar eclipse made to my chart I felt I needed to deal with the attack to work the energy out inside me. Previous eclipses on my DC have manifested as confrontations with open enemies, so I thought I may as well live this one out and experience it fully. It can only be good for me and like Jenn said, it will help me grow.
So you would have let the matter drop if I had not commented? You ridicule someone’s work and are happy to leave it at that if they don’t respond. However if they do respond and attempt to defend their work, you keep attacking them and geting more personal, posting more defamatory blogs. Wow.
Why are you still saying I used astrology to predict after the fact? That oil spill blog was an astrological analysis of an event. I didn’t say “that’s how you would predict it”. It was an attempt to explain what happened using astrology. We learn by studying events like this.
You also said: “The fact that you make money off of this blog is gravy — so long as you peddle bullshit and make money off it, I’m happy to play critic, as in a properly functioning capitalist society, the critic of a product has a protected role.” lousycanuck.ca/?p=3898
It seems you enjoy your self appointed role as a “protected” critic.
Yes I did call you a coward.
You wrote: “I’ll be cross-posting it as a comment in your Deepwater Horizon thread since you’ve invited me to do so, and we’ll see what kind of “debate” I get there.” lousycanuck.ca/?p=3895 Deepwater Horizon foretold by astrology!!! (Well, post-told)
I did ask you three times to comment on my article which you initially criticized, but instead you pasted you blog article as a comment on three of Marina’s unrelated articles.
I do take back my coward comment now as you have come here to debate.
Jason Thibeault, I read your article. I did not read the 184 comments.
I do think your preach was directed at your choir and your sponsors.
You cannot possibly believe you’ll change anyone’s mind about astrology who has been helped by chart analysis, can you? You cannot possibly imagine that your self-indulgent article will be taken scientifically seriously by anyone either, do you? I mean, really?
Your article was an Age-of-Reason rant against what for you is part of the Unknown. Age of Reason science goes along the lines of, “if it doesn’t make sense and can’t be explained, it can’t possibly be right”.
Science is not based on fact and you said so in many more words in your article. Science is based on repeatability through the application of the Scientific Method. Validity is established when results can be repeated, not when they can be explained.
Astrology is and has been popular for several thousand years for no other reason than repeatability. Repeatability is why overwhelmingly, what’s called “precessed” charts based on actual observed positions of the planets, are rarely used by anyone. Precessed astrology isn’t consistently repeatable. Established ephemeral astrological work is repeatable and has been for several thousand years.
And just because I love sarcastic irony and also happen to be a devout Catholic, I’m going to pray for you. You’re welcome.
And I will continue to study science and astrology, and practice my religion and will defend them all. You, sir, I will neither read nor analyze again. You fall into none of those categories. You have fallen on your face, in my opinion.
Jason, I find you disingenuous.
And neither your response to me nor your article ginned up anything setting “all astrology is based on faith” as a testable hypothesis.
You can’t explain astrology nor did you refute it. You merely criticized it. In fact, you can do neither one. I doubt Isaac Newton could have either. He’s not on record as dismissing astrology. His is an example you could learn from.
It seems to me you’ve become bored playing with your walking fish.
I am a regular reader over at Jason’s blog. I can attest to the fact that if you had not commented on his post, I would have been more than happy to just leave it at that. I may have thought “Wow, those astrologers are crazy folks”, but I would not have cared one way or the other to investigate further.
To imply that you are a victim here is fallacious. To imply that Jason has been hurtling personal insults at you is fallacious. There was a point when the language began to get personal, and that was when a certain someone referred to us as “sniggering academic wankers”. I’ll leave it to you to “predict” who that was.
I have said that I don’t doubt that you are a fantastic father, a loving spouse, and likely an all around nice bloke. I disagree that astrology has any value in predicting events in people’s lives. I think that the service you offer your clients, although solicited by them and consented to, is nothing more than entertainment, a parlour game of little value; I don’t like it because those people believe that what you are doing is valuable and of greater worth than simple entertainment. I understand that the vague advice you offer your clients is mostly harmless, maybe even good and useful. It’s the premise under which you offer it that I take issue with. I would take the same stance with psychics and tarot readers. I would also mention that I believe homeopathy to be bunk as well, and in its case, I am more forcefully opposed because of the danger to client’s health.
The problem with explaining things through astrology after the fact is that it gives the impression to gullible shills that astrology has predictive power, an assumption that is wrong on its face. Things that occur thousands or millions of miles away have no bearing on any random occurrences here on earth. That is a fact. Until you or someone else man up and prove otherwise, it will remain a fact. You were asked to back up your claims that astrology is not a load of hooey and you have answered with nothing more than insults.
I have a method of my own that holds some predictive power. Let’s call it George’s Law. It states that when someone makes extraordinary claims, then refuses to back them up with facts and instead attacks those with dissenting opinions- that person will draw increasing negative attention on the internet at a rate directly proportional to the crap that spews from his mouth. Ask <a href="I am a regular reader over at Jason's blog. I can attest to the fact that if you had not commented on his post, I would have been more than happy to just leave it at that. I may have thought "Wow, those astrologers are crazy folks", but I would not have cared one way or the other to investigate further.
To imply that you are a victim here is fallacious. To imply that Jason has been hurtling personal insults at you is fallacious. There was a point when the language began to get personal, and that was when a certain someone referred to us as “sniggering academic wankers”. I’ll leave it to you to “predict” who that was.
I have said that I don’t doubt that you are a fantastic father, a loving spouse, and likely an all around nice bloke. I disagree that astrology has any value in predicting events in people’s lives. I think that the service you offer your clients, although solicited by them and consented to, is nothing more than entertainment, a parlour game of little value; I don’t like it because those people believe that what you are doing is valuable and of greater worth than simple entertainment. I understand that the vague advice you offer your clients is mostly harmless, maybe even good and useful. It’s the premise under which you offer it that I take issue with. I would take the same stance with psychics and tarot readers. I would also mention that I believe homeopathy to be bunk as well, and in its case, I am more forcefully opposed because of the danger to client’s health.
The problem with explaining things through astrology after the fact is that it gives the impression to gullible shills that astrology has predictive power, an assumption that is wrong on its face. Things that occur thousands or millions of miles away have no bearing on any random occurrences here on earth. That is a fact. Until you or someone else man up and prove otherwise, it will remain a fact. You were asked to back up your claims that astrology is not a load of hooey and you have answered with nothing more than insults.
I have a method of my own that holds some predictive power. Let’s call it George’s Law. It states that when someone makes extraordinary claims, then refuses to back them up with facts and instead attacks those with dissenting opinions- that person will draw increasing negative attention on the internet at a rate directly proportional to the crap that spews from his mouth. Ask joecienkowskilies.wordpress.com/2010/07/10/joe-cienkowski-is-a-filthy-liar/
Oh. I guess I DID go back on my word, since I cross-posted it in a new thread which was getting comments. However, you do realize that “cross-posting” means “posting in two places at the same time”, right? I did exactly that. I just didn’t do it where I said I would. If you’d like, I could copy-and-paste the entire comment (which, as I said, was written as a comment then put on my blog), into that DH thread, as I had originally promised. Would it stay intact, or would you reduce it to a link again?
As for your post-dictions, while one of your commenters has said over at my place that astrology isn’t used to make predictions, I thought that’s what a natal chart was all about — figuring out what COULD happen, not what DID happen. Since we already know what DID happen. Correct me if I’m wrong, but do your readers not believe that astrology can be used predictively, and do they not expect you to perform readings to exactly that end?
As for being a critic, one doesn’t accuse amazon.com reviewers of defamation, does one?
Uhm, Joe, I have a question: Did your comments show up in your response twice to purposely make your response longer or was it an accident?
What both you and Jason have done is set up a straw man about astrology and demand that an astrologer defend the straw man. Your and Jason’s assertions about astrology, in a general sense, are incorrect and obviously set out as bait. Why on earth would you expect anyone to bite? It’s like picking out an incorrect practice of Christianity like worship of the Blessed Virgin Mary and then demanding that a Christian defend it. If anyone does worship the Blessed Virgin Mary, to continue the example, it’s not the correct practice of Christianity; hence, it would be sacrilegious to condemn someone you perceived as conducting such worship as not being in a state of grace.
Nobody in his or her right mind would go there. Nor demand that an astrologer defend wrong assumptions of yours and Jason’s about astrology.
Your assertion that “things that occur thousands or millions of miles away have no bearing on any random occurrences here on earth” is a nonsensical statement in the context of discussing both astrology and science. Quantum physics studies random particles and astrology is repeatable.
Just give it up, man. Study astrology so you can intelligently discuss it or risk being deemed a Richard Dawkins who, when told he wasn’t theologically qualified to condemn Christianity, replied, “Do you have to read up on leprechology before disbelieving in leprechauns?”
jason thibeault… i think you’re a fool.. you can think what you want.
For the record, I have no sponsors. I make not a dime off my website. Not even Google Ads. I even pay for my hosting.
Again, I’m not interested in this “science can’t prove astrology”, because I feel that science has disproven it. For the reasons outlined in my post. It is based on objective observation of facts, so it is indeed based on facts. I’m really only interested in debate on those points outlined in my post. Not in how popular astrology has been, how good of an astrologer Jamie Funk happens to be, how accurate your hits have been anecdotally, or any other vague and unfalsifiable claims about astrology’s functionality.
If you want to believe astrology works, go right ahead, be my guest. Just admit it’s all based on faith. I mean, I have no argument whatsoever against faith. That’s my weak spot, even! Highlighted, with a bulls-eye.
Oh btw Jamie, I lol’d until my stomach hurt at the exorcism pic. XD
hello
Quite a long time after the battle, it seems… On the bright side, this kind of attack makes you stronger (in your belief, on your line); and by the way, it shows that your work is great: it put enough pressure on them to react… you didn’t choose this but…
Just don’t lose your sense of humour,’cause it’s our best weapon against skeptical trols (smile)
Some people may use charts for predictions; some don’t. Astrology isn’t all about predicting what will or won’t happen. Many people study their own natal charts to see how their personality traits play out. Likewise, many also study and compare charts of others in the same way. Those looking into what may happen (predicting) may use transits, returns, solar arcs, progressions, etc. as a tool. To say a natal chart is used to make predictions is just not correct. While I do believe astrology can be used in predictions, I do NOT expect Jaimie and Marina to do so. Predictive readings, by the way, could be looked at as being horary readings.
Jamie, if you’re doing the work you love and the work you are destined to do, you don’t have the time to argue with people who have no concept of the art. I’ve tried to do that and all I ever ended up with was a headache. One cannot change the mind of another without first engaging the mind through personal experiences. I was a skeptic 30 years ago until someone looked at my chart and went “back” in my life to describe experiences I’d already had.
This is always how I start my readings, to get my client’s mind engaged through obvious truth. I don’t do the future because I don’t think there’s any future in it. We all have free choice to move our lives in one way or another. Go back, my son, and use your key to open the past for this gentleman. Nuff said…
Denouncing something without a fair and open discussion is neither helpful or enlightened. The famed philosopher of science, Paul Feyerabend, proposed to scientists who were sceptical of astrology to test it before arriving at a conclusion (“The Strange Case of Astrology” – fisa.altervista.org/cialtrones.pdf).
For astrology to be scientifically verifiable astrologers need to make repeat accurate predictions. You are welcome to examine the the many predictions for the USA based on ancient vedic astrology reading of the planetary periods and transits in the SAMVA USA chart (Perpetual Union). Here are some major accurate predictions:
cosmologer.blogspot.com/2010/05/crisis-in-summer-of-2010.html
cosmologer.blogspot.com/2008/09/crisis-in-fall.html
Hi Jamie, in spanish we said “Ladran Sancho señal que cabalgamos..” from Don Quijote de la Mancha, M Cervantes, something like ..”they are barking (the dogs) it´s means we are riding”, i agree, don´t waste your time, i like your work because it allow me to learn a lot about astro and how it´s work even thought not always our political views are similar.
Mr George W: what a lot of empy words i get boring trying to understand them! Sorry may be i´m a spanish native! 🙂
I have been a involved in debates over many years, mostly in co-operative rather than competative arenas and, believe me, on-line debating leaves a LOT to be desired – it is however, in my humble opinion, worth trying to set the record straight, even at the risk of prelonging the argument and invoking boredom (THAT will happen soon enough anyway)
Why is it worth it?…….for the sake of balance, grounded humour and standing up for ones own
here is a thing….
…….thank goodness for humour, and I do love sharing a good laugh, but, I am also concerned that, while giving energy to the vitriolic only produces more vitriol, damage also needs repair and damage has been done – we would not be here answering the call of this post otherwise – so , all of the above wisdom most definitley applies and….
healing is a process that can bring not only resolution and reconciliation, but, understanding also, so long as you are prepared to go into the juice at the heart of the matter – and yes, where it might not always be wise to do so, at times it also is – for (once again) the sake of balance, humour and standing up for ones own…and that includes Jamie and Marina……so, while an unwritten rule of blogging could be that it is better at times to let others step in on ones behalf, heres another (re)post(e) :
Simply put, this was a loaded debate from the start –
There was and is no neutral ground on which this debate could take place, either literal, philosphical or pragmatic – it was, by its very nature, divisive – a set up and heres why…..
there was no attempt made to outline the rules of debate at the outset, which would have made it much more interesting, demanding and productive, instead of descending into a messy free for all, as it did
if parameters of etiquette had been addressed at the very outset the resulting ‘baiting’ and ‘flaming’ could have been avoided (I have followed the threads), although there are absolutley no guarantees of this over the internet
as to the attempt at debate – the prosecutor based his argument on a bias of criteria that are both inappropriate and inapplicable to the respondants defense – it is a psuedosceptic’s argument – to remove the bias the prosecutor would have to accept the limitations of his own criteria – in the absence of such acceptance, this bias is indefensible, primarily because it is self referential, as is likely to be the case with most arguments based solely on criterian of a scientifically deterministic nature, despite their merits
the suitable repost to the challenge is to either walk away, or to meet challenge with challenge, or to turn the opponents energy around (the last two could be delivered as a double whammy)…..
a possible returned challenge, in this case, would be ‘for the prosecutor to argue the opposite pro/position’, both as evidence of his unbias and proof of his ability to debate – and we’ll come to the third response shortly
the concession made towards faith, as a way of resolving the argument, whether as admittion of weakness or not, appears benign enough, but, is in reality a poor substitute for resolution as it is questionable if ‘faith’ has anything to do with the (defendant’s) counter argument at all
All in all, the debate might have been worth having if it had been framed differently – it could have stated a desire for a different outcome, such as one that aimed to produce understanding rather than disproof – in order for this to happen, however, the protagonist would have to be prepared to embrace the dialectics of the unknowable as well as the knowable – he would undoubtedly stand to gain experience through this that could be supportive of his argument – however, it could also both undermine AND refute the grounds of his own argument – that would be both the challenge, and the risk…..for him
the preferable route for some is to disengage – are we now wrapping this up?
for others it is to say – lets have the debate properly
and yet, there is a third alternative, which is to be daring and say – Jason, send us your birth details and we’ll provide a different kind of counter argument……but, that would just be being provocative, wouldn’t it?……
On man, I’d love to see Jason’s chart.
Jason, erect a natal chart, scan it, and just for fun why not let one of us who isn’t an astrologer have a go at what’s eating you?
Don’t know how to erect a chart? No ephemeris? You can get one for free at Astro*dienst.
No joke, it might shed some light on the whole situation.
That post you are referring to you wrote after your original post about my oil spill article. It was the original post which I came to you blog to talk about because it related to my work.
This article you want me to comment on is about scientifically disproving astrology in general and I don’t want to get into that debate. I really do think it would be wasted energy. I’m just not interesting in going though all you points and then researching counter arguments.
You originally criticized my oil spill blog and I am willing to keep debating the things you brought up in that one.
The article you want me to comment talks about astrology I do not use. The only thing you did mention that I use is the Yod aspect pattern, so I will talk about that if you want.
I wasn’t joking around when I said i am a skeptic like you. I have been debating on astrology forums, networking sites and other astrology blogs about the validity of various styles and techniques used in astrology. I understand the popular image of astrology is what most people read in the sun signs columns. I cringe at this because it does give serious astrologers a credibility problem.
What I find most intriguing about how our relationship started is that of all the astrology blogs in the world, you picked the one that uses no Sun signs. I can’t represent mainstream astrology and defend it in the blog you want me to comment on. What Marina and I do is rather specialized. We have moved away from Hellenistic based astrology, from which most traditional astrology is based.
I will talk with you about the astrology I practice, but not the astrology I don’t. Basically I’m just working with the planets and how they aspect each other, and include fixed star interpretations. It’s not the random number generator or whatever you called it. It’s not a pure science, we use the other half of our brain too.
Like I said just before, astrology is not a pure science. It is a blend of astronomy, mathematics, mythology, psychology and intuition. The unifying feature of all forms of astrology is the astronomy and mathematics, and that is pure science and not a matter of faith. It is that definite and factual starting point from which all the interpretation stems.
I won’t cut it down if you post it the oil spill article. I will address some things which relate either to my oil spill post or other things you mentioned which relate to the astrology I use, for example the aspects and the Yod aspect pattern. I won’t be spending much of my time doing that for a while yet as we have this thread going and I have a few readings and other projects to catch up on, not to mention being on “holidays” and looking forward to a boozy BBQ tomorrow.
Sorry, but nobody’s going to get to see my natal chart (unless someone does something pretty creepy and searches that information out, and does it for me, because it shouldn’t be publicly available). The reason I don’t particularly care to do that is, pretty much my entire life story with very very few (and insignificant) exceptions is on my blog. If not there, then in a number of other publicly accessible venues. Most of them under my real name. You could as easily find out all sorts of extremely salient details about my life history and interpret those events into your chart, That would not exactly be the fairest test of your abilities.
If you really wanted to prove your astrology’s interpretive validity, we could do something completely different. I could find five people’s information, give you one of them without telling them, then get the chart and interpretations and give all five of them the results. I’d then ask them to rate, percentage-wise, how close or accurate they were. If all but one give, say, under 20%, but one gives 85%+, we could call that a “hit”, if that one happens to be the person whose details I gave you. If multiple people rate it highly, or if the hit rates it low, we could call it a miss. I mean, you’d have to trust that I’m not trying to “trap” you somehow, but you have my word.
This is all, of course, obviated if you’d really rather just debate the predictive (or interpretive, whatever) qualities of astrology per my specific doubts. Because those are what I was REALLY interested in talking about. There’s nothing disingenuous about me or what I want to discuss.
I’ll wait a bit for reposting that comment. For now, people who want to see it can visit the link. We can revisit after your barbecue. I’m likely to not spend terribly much time online tomorrow either, so fair is fair.
Astrology can be used to make predictions and I do give that a go, however that is just one use of astrology and it’s not everyone’s cup of tea. I generally only make predictions about mundane events, for example the outcome of an election, or events relating to nations.
Astrology is also used to look at what did happen, that’s how we learn. Most people who ask for readings are more interested in greater self understanding, which is probably the most important use of astrology. When doing forecasts reports, it is not so much about making predictions of specific events, but describing major themes and issues that are likely to be brought up during a particular period.
For example, the way the solar eclipse on Sunday aspected my horoscope suggested that a major theme for me at this time would be the relationship with my partner, relationships with open enemies, and personal growth. I knew this was coming for a while so I did some research into the fixed star which this eclipse fell on. I looked at mundane events which had occured over the last century when the slower moving planets were conjunct that star. I also looked at a few natal charts with this star prominent. I came to the conclusion that this star would have a bridge building effect. My thoughts about the influence of this star were confirmed when I looked into the horoscope of David Petraeus who has this star conjunct a planet.
You might find it an interesting read: “These themes are of cooperation, bridge building, and compromise. All Mercury Venus attributes associated with close partners, whether friend or foe. Finding the “middle” ground.” Fixed Star Wasat – Constellation Gemini
(And yes, I’m broadening everything in my post to include “interpretive” because everyone seems to think astrology, whether Jamie’s brand or otherwise, is not predictive. That’s fine. I just happen to also think it’s useless as an explanatory function post-hoc, because you can interpret the influence of the planets however you want, in order to rationalize something that *already happened*.)
From Rob – ” Simply put, this was a loaded debate from the start – There was and is no neutral ground on which this debate could take place, either literal, philosphical or pragmatic – it was, by its very nature, divisive – a set up and here’s why…..”
I have to agree there Jamie as I took part in several long sessions online with a variety of sceptics recently on Brian Curry’s site and it was interesting in that it went nowhere! There are different wavelengths each of us are operating on and we rarely get to cross over. Sceptics do usually start with an agenda. Its ‘rip and tear’ I have to say (tear down that is). To Jason’s credit he is quite a deal more reasoned and rational than many sceptics. They often turn out to be rude and insulting and angry to boot.
A couple of years ago, when Saturn first transited Virgo, at the very first stages of my primarily personal and Tarot blog, I was bashed by a couple of ladies. Who did I think I was? My work was no good. Etc, etc, etc. This went on and on in spurts, until fairly recently. And even recently, believe it or not, I had an astrologer (out of all people) and some of his/her cult members (I don’t know– feels like a cult in that astrologer’s space to me, and my Scorpio-Merc isn’t wrong about these things) appear on my blog to tell me how to do “my job”.
Uh, weeell, if my work was not to their liking, why were they on my blog? Obviously I’ve written something to pique their interest. So they were probably just jealous.
I feel the same here for you. People will bash perfectly nice individuals as well as all the things and thoughts too far from their narrow-minds. And while I understand how this sort of childishness feels, and I’m sorry that you’re going through it, your writing and your style and your personality in general (which shines through your writing all the time) is going to get through this nonsense.
You show *them* that you’re better than that crap.
Signed,
Deb
Awwww, come on, Jason! Show us your chart!
Show me your chart I’ll show you mine. B)
All I would be looking for would be personality characteristics anyway, not life events. I’m certainly no astrologer but I’ll bet I could spot what makes you “tick” and why this is such an issue for you. Might be enlightening, who knows?
I do have a serious reason for asking. I’m wanting to study transpersonal psychology eventually and a skeptic’s chart that hasn’t already been worked to pieces would be a fascinating study, at least to me.
No joke, I’ll share my data. I’ve blogged it and anyway, I’ve got 33 first cousins just on my mother’s side. Everybody in the world knows my birth data already.
Jamie..you do an excellent job and just dont give anyone like that the power or to justify anything re what you do..frankly if they dont know what they’re talking about and studied the subject then its none of their business!..I do know… as I used to get into some fiery debates and the like with being a Tarot reader,spiritualist etc over the years but I learnt in the end …to just IGNORE THEM and their small minded ways!!!!(I know..can be difficult! Reminds me of a time when a quietly spoken ministers wife when she found out what I did turned into ALL the FURIES,eyes wild,hair flying,in my face and spitting and telling ME I was in league with the Devil…as I waited for her head to spin!And I was all of 15 at the time!! LOL)..anyway its all good and you will develop a suitably shiny exterior called ‘armour’..maybe like they have on STARGATE where it rolls over one..god,I love those special effects they are great for visualising and put some mirrors on it and then you are good to go! ;D
Not meaning to be flippant but am in full support of you as you well know by now I hope! And listen to your good woman, man!! When you dont let them get to you it only makes you stronger!
Keep up the great work! let other things take care of this sort of nonsense! 😀
Interesting discussion, though elements of it evoke a certain deja vu.
Certain people operate under a pseudo-scientific paradigm. If it can’t be explained by science, then it must be false. Of course the position is ridiculous, but to the person having it, it seems the most rational thing in the world.
Where is the common ground to even have a conversation?
Interestingly, I see astrological enthusiasts as being pretty open-minded for the most part. On the other hand, most skeptics appear to repetitively stick their fingers in their ears (I’m being nice) and then don’t really hear what else is being said.
What the skeptics don’t really realize is that to the enlightened, all their “rationality” comes across as most irrational. Until they’ve actually studied Astrology, how COULD then understand, appreciate, or meaningfully discuss it? It just isn’t possible.
As for Jason, the easiest “proof” that I would offer (though you likely won’t really understand, I am sorry to say) is that I do a special service in Astrology called rectification. I take the events from a person’s life and their month, day, year, and place of birth and use that information to work “backwards” in order to derive their true birthtime. To help in this, I use a very special program called Polaris. It simply takes the events that were entered, and then scans the complete range of possible birthtime and ranks the birthtimes by HOW WELL THE ASTROLOGY ASPECTS FIT THE EVENTS. With enough events, it finds the birthtime.
In the case of Ken Haining, he gave me about 18 events from his life… things such as wedding dates, illnesses, etc…. I enter those events into the program and tell it to search for his birthtime. There is no subjectivity involved, as it is a computer program. It does a statistical analysis of how each birthtime (in that range) performs and merely reports the results of those findings… in other words, I have no way of influencing the functioning of the program. Enter events, look at results.
If there is NOTHING to Astrology, if planets that are millions of miles away from us can NOT influence or illuminate our lives, then tell me, please, HOW is it possible that a piece of software can take the events from someone’s life and give the birthtime. Polaris shows that the highest amount of (appropriate) angular astrological aspects occurs with a birthtime of 12:01:30 pm. Ken has a birth certificate. That birth certificate shows 12:02 pm.
Let’s think about the odds of that happening ONCE. We have a full day to search. That gives 1,440 minutes of time in which the program COULD say he was born. This means that correctly finding his birthtime BEATS 1439:1 odds against finding it.
These are relatively high odds to beat, considering that (according to you) the underlying process that it is based on, does not work.
I come from a strong math and sciences background. (at the Junior Engineering Technical Society TEAMS test, I scored the highest score in the state of Illinois and the 2nd highest score in the whole U.S.) My original foray into astrology was to DISPROVE it. The difference between us, is that logic dictated to me that before I could convincingly argue against something, I had to first understand it. The problem was, it DID work. Early on in my studies, I read for a nice lady, who later had me read to her about her daughter (who I never met). In the chart, the symbols very obviously stated [for Astrologers, there was an intense Saturn (in Leo) square to Mercury in her 6th House] that there was likely some “slowness of mind” relating somehow to her heart. That is exactly how I presented it to the Mother. The Mother informed me that when Rachel (the daughter) was born, the umbilicus had wrapped around her neck and she had gone into cardiac arrest, depriving the brain of oxygen. They brought Rachel out okay, but the oxygen had been cut off long enough that she was born brain-impaired, or “retarded” as her Mother said it. Now, it doesn’t stop there. For Rachel’s Mother, she had always blamed herself, that if she had done this or that, that it wouldn’t have happened. By seeing that it was in fact her daughter’s destiny, SHE NO LONGER CONSTANTLY BLAMED HERSELF for what had happened. In short, a lot of healing for the Mother occurred on that day. As I am a person inclined to care about the suffering of others, I learned on that day, that I can do a lot to help my “Brothers.”
Astrology works. Faith is a virtue, but not at all necessary in this discussion.
I can only wish you (assuming you are searching for Truth and not just a justification for your preconceived notions) the good fortune to be able to study and see the true workings of this great science/art of Astrology.
Ironically, the evidence is there, but instead of having to see something in order to understand it, here it is reversed…you’ll have to understand it before you can even see it.
Sorry, but science/material mind has to develop eyes before it can see through the veil. [Most skeptics, if they fell on a pin, they’d be blind in both eyes.]
Peace
James
@Parin Stormlaughter
“All I would be looking for would be personality characteristics anyway, not life events.”
which is precisely why he won’t do it – the implicit threat is character assassination
although I am not suggesting that this is your motive Parin, it is nevertheless the threat and is meant to remain one as an (unassailable) source of doubt within the ‘opponent’s’ mind until answered – which Jason has – he said “no” – we are required to respect that
Defamation holds no credibility whatsoever in debate
If however he were to respond to your offer I would suggest that this would be have to be a personal arrangement between yourselves, not an invitation to a public slaughtering – enough of that already!
Also, to avoid prejudice in your studies, a degree of anonimity of your subjects as source material would greatly enhance your findings
however, this does not rule out the possibility of this particular challenge being met in some way shape or form – it is also an attempt to move the argument on……
This is just astounding. You are happy to believe what Jason writes about someones elses work in a field neither of you have studied. Have a laugh and kick it around a bit, but if the author of the work objects then then you all get upset.
You know absolutely nothing about the advice I give my clients yet you make a statement like this? You don’t like something you have never seen? You have exhibited no logic.
Marina added the pic and the video, she’s my image consultant 🙂
Very true, I do believe things happen for a reason.
Thanks for those links Thor, I just found your comment in the spam. It seems when there are more than one or two links In a comment they get read as spam.
A Facebook friend suggested a quote from a scientist who was responding to harrassement about his belief in astrology:
“I have studied the matter, sir, and you have not” Sir Isaac Newton.
I guess this guy, Jason, doesn’t quite grasp the reality that, in this day and age, a simple Google search is very efficient in providing one with birth details among other pieces of information. Seriously, all one has to do to find information on someone else is do a quickie Google search. That simple. No research or stalking involved. Nothing creepy about how helpful Google is and, if it is used with the proper intentions, such as while looking up references for schoolwork, the search engine can be magical.
It’s just the way the internet operates in 2010.
Perhaps when Jason grows up, he’ll be able to deal with it. And maybe he’ll learn that if he doesn’t agree with something, he doesn’t have to be constipated about it.
Since you ask, I think you should have just ignored them. I certainly wouldn’t have included any links that would send traffic to their site. That is what they want. To increase the visibility of their own site by slamming others,
Dear Marina & Jamie,
Leave it to the ‘scientific’ types to crash the party and try to ruin it for everyone. They are so bereft of spirit and heart and we all know that ‘misery likes company’.
Just keep on keepin’ on and don’t let this guy ruin your vacation.
Love you both xoxo D.
Hey…like they say in Hollywood” good publicity? bad publicity? who cares b/c its still out there in the public eye!
Thanks for the “witch hunt” monologue! On a side note, the b/f and I are planning to spend Halloween up in Salem, Mass this year! Should be intertesting…
Rob, you cut me to the quick. XD
This further illustrates some of the ignorance surrounding astrology as a study.
You can read everything I’ve said yet think I need a horoscope to back up any observation of the obvious??? You have far more faith in astrology than I have!
A trained, competent astrologer’s analysis of MY chart would reassure your suspicious mind. I’m a Sagittarius Sun, Taurus Ascendant with Venus in 10th conjunct Midheaven. I’ve got about as much evil intent as the sweetest partying girlfriend you ever had. Never mind my Scorpio Moon.
@Parin Stormlaughter
Sorry darlin – didn’t mean to cut you…..but, Parin!
Hey, you know, I too would just love to see Jason have the courage of his own convictions and take up the Natal challenge – not, as you say, that we need to see the chart, but, how revealing WOULD the very process be…..we can only wonder – if he had the courage of his own convictions he might be prepared to make himself the subject of them, especially if he sincerely felt there was nothing in astrology, that it was all bunk – your bluff is called Jason
But, Parin, I was mis-reading your enthusiasm towards the idea, however, and meant no offense – as for the unsolicited advice (…minefield!) – arrogant derrr that I can sometimes be!!
yeah, I will own my own supicious mind, and my dark shadow (Scorp Asc conj. 12ho. NN + IC Lilith opp. Pluto + need I go on….), but, having said that, I am no astrologer – at least, I do not see clients as one, but, I do love astrology and feel at home exploring intuitive mundane interpretation – I tend to divine charts more than analyse them – my main thing is a kind of divination that rests on ‘technologies of spirit’, whose form does not have a common name, but which originated in the form that I practice in Africa – I inherited it, came back here (this life) with it, have been initiated into it – in its main form it also works with a symbolic language and on a circular map of the cosmos, just like astrology – there are many, many correspondences, and I feel a kinship here – the reason I mention this is…..
to my mind, and this is an argument that I would put to Jason, I have and continue to study as much of the workings of astrology as I can (you have to keep an open mind – there is no end) and, after all this it is not the knowledge that makes it work – the mundane technology that has its mechanistic basis is the lense through which the light of knowing shines – that light shines in some more strongly than in others – also, where this is sourced will vary from person to person and practice to practice – you cannot quantify this or necessarily give it a name – but, it works
However, the real currency and measure of my practice and that , I supsect, of practicing astrologers everywhere, is in the stories that people bring back – I have found these to be astonishing, confirming and downright wonderfull – they are where your proof is if proof be needed – yes, its subjective, but, you’d get over it if you let yourself – a good first step is working with an astrologer – I can recommend some excellent ones
@Jamie Funk
Thanks, Jamie. We live in an interesting time, when a whole world of information and views is at our fingertips. This is opening up new possibilities for astrologers in gathering information and presenting the case for astrology and helping each other with feedback. I’m of the view that astrology can only be proven with the ceaseless struggle to refine its predictive methods. Too many astrologers seem to have given up with predictions and use astrology mainly as some form of “intuition enhancer”. In my view, that is not the right way forward. The task is to apply techniques by making predictions. When a technique doesn´t work in prediction it also doesn’t work in interpretation and should be discarded and new techniques tested and adopted when they work. That is the sensible way forward. The fact tha you are making predictions is good. You also no longer use the signs of the tropical zodiac in your work and that is an auspicious start! I’ve long since adopted the visible sidereal zodiac and the ancient horoscopic methods with good results. My historical research has recently been focused on where exactly astrology in Europe took a wrong evolutionary turn a long, long time ago – with the tropical zodiac being adopted. Cheers,
cosmologer.blogspot.com/2010/07/ptolemys-mistake-and-origin-of-western.html
You mean none of the regular readers over on Jason’s blog or their close friends and family have ever consulted an astrologer even just for fun? Not only do I find that incredibly hard to believe, I find it incredibly boring. Close-minded people who not only can’t deal with the unknown, but find the only strength they can in touting this position lock-step. Yawn. How would you like to be one of this guy’s readers who happens to have an open-mind when it comes to astrology or who happened to like Jamie’s article? To be in a position to either hide/suppress your interests and views because the leader of the pack is on his bully-pulpit and needs someone or something to direct his own insecurities at, or to altogether leave a forum you also enjoy? Sad.
Jamie may not be the only injured party here.
Well it will be interesting to see what Neptune in Pisces brings is 2012, rational thought upon which all science is based has been discredited by Chaos theory, which simply states that everything is determined by some natural law however we as simple humans have not yet discovered all those laws and thus some things happen according to rules which are beyond our understanding.
If it scares some people to have to accept that they do not know everything and that some things are beyond their control then a dismissive reaction is not only to be expected but is perfectly understandable.
Do you trust your doctor 100% when he tells you what is wrong with you, or a better example, do you trust that a lawyer is acting entirely on your side without an eye to the money he is earning? They are both conflicted with the same human fraility. Is the expert who prepares a report worried about the ‘truth’ or the fee he is getting from the person who wants him to advise a certain way.
Astrology may not be 100% accurate, probably because there is more that we simple humans don’t understand than do, but there is more truth in it that an eigth grade chemistry lesson, which is simplified to the point of falsehood, so as not to confuse the students.
Anyway Jamie, don’t feed the trolls and keep up the good work!
Oh man, Rob, Scorpio NN in 12th? If you tell me your Neptune is in 6th, I’ll ask you to pray for ME.
Jason, are you listening? Jason!
If astrology is all in the realm of faith, have faith that your faith in its bunked-ness is correct.
I’ll put my birth info out there and you put yours. Anybody who wishes can have a go.
Parin Stormlaughter
December 14, 1960
2:18PM
Tuscaloosa, Alabama, USA
Please tell me anything you can show analysis for and Jason, we’ll do you the same courtesy (meaning no ‘you’re a meanie because I just feel it in my bones’).
Personality question about overall open-mindedness balanced with discernment ability, how about? That’s one I’ve never submitted to anyone so I have no preconceived notion.
🙂
There is nothing wrong with Science. I enjoy it. Hell, I’ve taken two science-related courses (Astronomy and another Geological one) in the past few months and excelled at them.
And you know what I realized? It’s not Science that’s a problem. It’s ARROGANT, wannabe-scholarly-and-above-thee types who ruin science for everyone else. Science is amazing. It really is. But even this form of study doesn’t have all the answers.
In Astronomy, there are tons of galaxies we don’t know a patootie about yet. What about that?
I hate when someone like Jason takes a form of study, be it a religious, scientific or metaphysical one, and refers to it as gospel. It is annoying and just plain childish. Nothing is perfect, and just because he doesn’t agree with your field, or that of anyone else, it doesn’t mean he should make a complete jackass of himself.
But Jason, honey, you’ve set up incorrect assumptions about astrology and asked for defense of them. It’s a common spin technique but utterly transparent.
Astrology as all about charts. It is not about gravity. Astrology is all about individual situations and events. It’s not about generalizations and talking points.
And what on earth does creationism have to do with this debate anyway?
And wow, selection bias! Never heard that one as a reason why astrology could not work. Makes me wonder if your ex-wife was well trained and competent in astrology if selection bias swayed her.
Really – I posted the open-mindedness question when I posted my birth information because that’s how astrology operates. Yeah, it’s possible to make generalized personality assumptions or to try to guess what the person is really wanting to know. But time, date, location–exact time, exact date, exact location–are the primary data input into the ephemeral computer. Bad input, bad output. Garbage in, garbage out.
You wussed out of the challenge, in my opinion.
I’ve promised myself I wouldn’t spend much time online today, but I just can’t let this particular comment pass.
@Teri
It’s evident you didn’t read my blog, or the comments therein. I can tell because you think nobody in my family or circle of friends has ever consulted an astrologer. In fact, in one of my comments, I pointed out that I married an ex-astrologer. She did all sorts of natal charts for people, and she thought she was “the real deal” and that horoscopes in papers and interpreting sun signs were crap. She has since discovered it was all selection bias, mind you, and that reality is really cool when you let it tell you about itself, but hey. That won’t stop any of you from making assumptions and insinuations that can be so easily disproven just by going over to the offending article and actually reading it.
So far this entire thread has devolved into telling me that I don’t have any facts to back me up, or that I follow some kind of scriptural dogmatic science religion, or personal attacks on my character. I don’t mind those. I’m actually quite used to them. I’ve fought for years on the internet against creationists trying to replace scientific teachings with “the earth was made by God six thousand years ago, evidence be damned”, so I’ve had every one of those attacks levelled at me. I’m pretty inured at this point. The only one of you that seems to have their heads about them is Rob, who (while he incorrectly assumes I fear character assassination) actually understands that this “debate” isn’t going to go anywhere as long as it’s driven out of some kind of attempt at hectoring.
Everything else, about people trying to peer-pressure me into
proving religion is true by quoting the bibleerr sorry, proving astrology is true by doing my natal chart, can stop barking up that tree. Unless someone decides to be super-creepy as Deb suggested they should (I work in IT, I know how easy it is to obtain personal information about someone without their consent, but if you do it, you’re doing it without my consent, ergo creepy, capisce?), there will be no interpreting my astrological influences when you could find out everything you could ever want to know about me, my personality, et cetera, from my blog.I’ve set the terms for what I want to actually talk about — that being my concerns about astrology, how it could work, and how I suspect it probably can’t. I’d like evidence to back up that the planets have any sort of influence on humankind whatsoever, outside of the few we know — Jupiter sweeps away asteroids, giving us a better shot at life; the moon drives our tides and churns our oceans; and the sun provides us with all the energy we need to overcome entropy. I know, I know, you can do a chart and find out why things happened after the fact via your framework, but have you ever tried doing up the wrong date for an event and explaining that event with the incorrect chart? Have you noticed how you can pretty well explain any event with any chart if you try hard enough? Outside of post-hoc rationalizations (e.g. doing charts after events), what proof do you have that there’s any kind of effect? Have you measured that effect? What drives the effect, and how does it affect only who and what it does?
Those questions, and more, are asked in my post, and I strongly welcome any of you to answer them. You know, rather than this unproductive and one-sided screaming. Again, if nobody’s interested in actually debating what I’ve posted, I’ll consider the matter closed, with no willing participants. I’d prefer Jamie do it, since he’s the one who challenged me, but if someone can give me any kind of explanation outside of “science can’t explain astrology” (which equals “you need faith”) in my mind, please take a shot at it! That’s why I’m here, and I’ll leave if I don’t get it.
(On second thought, if you just want to be rid of me, thinking I’m nought but a troll, then maybe you should just stand around and call me names and demand my birth information some more. I know when nobody’s serious about actually defending their beliefs in the context of the evidence to the contrary.)
Please be more specific. Which assumptions in my post are incorrect?
If you’re referring solely to my systematically eliminating each of the four fundamental forces that drive this universe as a possible vehicle for astrology’s influence as being an “assumption”, then you misunderstood the argument. The point was not to set up gravity as a strawman then knock it down. The point was to say there is NO force that can act over a distance in the way you posit, if none of those four fundamental forces can be the cause.
There’s your straw man. Astrology is based on recorded observation over time. It’s not based on the currently-known laws of physics which have been fairly recently deduced. I do not know of a single trained and competent astrologer who draws a connection between the currently-known laws of physics and the thousands of years of astrological observation that are included in the practice of astrology. If you know of any by name, please let us know. I can always be wrong. I don’t believe I am in this instance.
To attempt to debunk astrology by doing nothing more than pointing to astrology’s disinterest in currently-known laws of physics is to make our point.
Honestly, quantum physics is much more likely to provide a window into astrology than other scientific disciplines. I do follow advances in quantum physics as closely as a laywoman can. I was not a physics major but did study under Tom Wdowiak.
Stay tuned to quantum physics if astrology doesn’t do it for you. Quantum physics is weird and inexplicable, and seems to be getting more weird every time the super collider data get more analysis.
And avoid asking an physics scientist to operate without data for his or her formulas, which is metaphorically what you’re doing right now in this astrology debate. Astrological formulas were developed from thousands of years of observation. Formulas and data are as critical to the practice of astrology as they are to a physics scientist.
But again, astrology is not pure science. Nor is it a pure mathematical discipline. It combines elements of both with judgment and intuition to create a product that’s useful rather than hypothetical or “science for science’s sake”.
It is possible to combine the known with the unknown. Dr. Wdowiak once gave us the formula for pre-cognition. He explained how it worked. It was 30 years ago exactly and I’ve lost the piece of paper on which I had written it but I clearly remember his explanation. If you’re interested I’ll share.
Mostly, just let the straw man burn down now why not? Science will never debunk astrology just as it will never debunk the art side of the practice of medicine, for instance.
I’ll leave the challenge open if you feel up to it.
You guys dont have to prove anything. I would just let them slander away…
Those of us with firsthand experience know that someone’s denouncement of astrology doesn’t make astrology any less valid. Nor does someone’s disbelief in God (or a divine source) make them any less loved by that source, or any less deserving of respect. As a Christian who also studies astrology, I believe God gave Jason free will to decide to believe or not, as he chooses. Jason shouldn’t have to justify his skepticism to us any more than any of us should have to justify our beliefs to him.
Whether or not we agree with Jason on various issues, his blog is devoted to providing a safe environment for atheists and other ‘non-believers’ to express themselves, so it comes as no big surprise he would not respect the work of astrologers – Jamie included. Just as astrologers have been injured by the insults of skeptics, I suspect many non-believers have been deeply wounded by some very real hypocrisies as others try to discount their worthiness . . . which in turn leads to a desire to discount those who believe. It becomes a pointlessly vicious cycle of exclusion without resolution.
As someone who has engaged in an internet exchange from time to time, I understand the value in occasionally setting the record straight. And I can understand the impulse that led Jamie to defend his position. But sometimes there just isn’t enough common ground to make the discussion worth continuing – far better to let it go and wish each other well.
That’s all I wanted to say; I don’t plan on debating anyone.
@Jason Thibeault
no known force – that is, recognised by science….
@Jason Thibeault
“The only one of you that seems to have their heads about them is Rob”
thanks for the endorsement, but, man, I lost my head years ago when my ex was murdered by a rampant medicine man (grew some useful replacements tho – look out for that Lilith/Pluto connection!!) – actually it was a seminal moment (understatement) and turning point, a crossroads out of which my current practice emerged, not in defiance, but, out of the understanding I gained as a result and continue to gain – serious sh*t bro – and I have the feeling that the kind of technology that fuels my practice would scare the sh*t out of yus
…once upon a time, one studied both “science” and “science”.. an assortment of those would be medicine, botany, geography, astronomy, astrology and so on. The map of the world was speculated upon, and most of what we call hard science today was merely speculation and philosophical debate, usually at that point in time debated by religious scholars and various people of the establishment at the time.
Now in the confrontation of an archaic view of the world where only “science” is the point of view accepted by the majority, where those who have no time to look beyond surface and can not explore the mathematical and meaning and psychologically driven by egotistical personalities we see those who consider themselves of “science” “debunking” or outwardly attacking a science of the past.
What is sinister about this is that it comes from a mindset that declares it has a monopoly on what would be considered “truth” where in all honest no one individual has any hold upon what exactly truth is, for in this day and age, I have seen things that are constantly being “debunked” by what other people call “experts”.
Remember that the establishment within the scientific community believe they represent the truth and they construct this manipulation that they know what it is and how it works, when even Keplar stated when he could not measure the relationship of molecular structure, that he could not do so, but suspected that it worked thus so but maybe in the future we could see this relationship.. he was being a truthful scientist. Keplar was also not only a Scientist with a large S, but a fine example of an astrologer. WE have this in common, a history, a heritage as astrologers with those of the so called “established scientific community” much in the same way “witches” are the common ancestry of the the medical establishment, psychologists, botanists and homeopathic medicine.
Its obvious that some people just have an axe to grind. Leave them to their own beheading, but keep you neck clearly away from their virtual outcries.
Jamie..keep up your work, and damn the critics.
I love this blog, please please don’t stop posting these brilliant articles just because of cowards who spend their time (wasted in my opinion) looking for topics to try and shred with their self righteous pontification – always hidden behind the safety of a keyboard…
I am (as I am sure others are too) waiting impatiently (taurus with aries moon!)for more articles on your blog 🙂
@Parin Stormlaughter
I’m assuming you can guess that it was accidental. In fact when I first posted it the redundant part was absent. I apologize.
Jamie: Feel free to correct that mistake.
I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what a strawman is. Jason and I are asking for someone to explain how the motion of planets and constellations can have any effect on random occurrences in our daily lives. If you believe in astrology, I assume that you must believe in this premise. If I am wrong I welcome your correction.
A strawman would be having Jamie defend sun signs or horoscopes when he does not in fact use them. Neither I nor Jason has ever asked him to do any such thing. Apart from a purposely ironic title for a post I wrote, no-one has made mention of horoscopes at all.
You seem to be implying that random particles cause me to have a bad run at luck this week, or random particles at my birth made me an angry troll. Well that’s a hypothesis, let’s run with it shall we? Please show me how this works.
Astrology is repeatable how exactly? That it can be used again and again to say “I told you that would happen, well, I didn’t really tell you, but my method explains why after the fact” Of what use is it if it only tells us stuff we already know? If it can’t make useful predictions it is just a parlour game, a fun giggle over drinks and friends.
What Dawkins is getting at with the quote you use is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, the onus is not on the skeptic but on the supernaturalist.
Marina/Jamie
This guy is obviously a narcissistic idiot just fishing for attention! For starters anyone who is atheist is a small minded, small spirited indiviual on some sort of an ego/power trip.
Come on guys – You know what happens when you give a dog a choice between a diamond and a piece of shit – he will choose a piece of shit every time! That is exactly what this man has chosen – shit.
Obviously he is not even on the radar when it comes to matters of heart, soul and spirit so to even acknowledge his existence as someone who can even understand such matters is a waste of valuable time that you both can be helping those of us who thirst for knowledge in these areas because we are “SPIRITUALLY AWAKE!” We choose the diamond!
KEEP FIGHTING THE GOOD FIGHT!!
XO
@Jamie
@James
James,
What you offer here is very interesting. That one could give someone an accurate birthtime based on events in their life is a testable hypothesis. I admit that I am still skeptical, but I applaud you for finally offering a concrete falsifiable prediction that astrology can make.
I am very interested and plan on investigating it further.
If this hypothesis is correct and independently testable, I would gladly retract my statement that astrology has no predictive power.
@Parin Stormlaughter
Hi Parin, I´ll give it a shot. Mostly a reading of natal potential and major trends and one important short term transit influence. Hope it is helpful.
Parin Stormlaughter
Dec 14, 1960 2:18 PM +06:00 CST
Tuscaloosa, AL:USA Longitude: 87W34 Latitude: 33N13
Lahiri Ayanamsha: 23:18 Current Period: ME/ME/SA
Planet Deg Sign Speed SA Nakshatra Lord
================================================
Asc 20:21 Ari Bharani Ve
Sun 29:33 Sco +01:01:04 WK Jyeshtha Me
Moon 10:43 Lib +13:45:42 WK Swati Ra
MarsR 21:17 Gem -00:19:23 ST Punarvasu Ju
Merc 17:24 Sco +01:31:32 FM Jyeshtha Me
Jupt 16:49 Sag +00:13:37 WK P.Shadya Ve
Ven 12:00 Cap +01:10:51 ST Shravana Mo
Sat 24:18 Sag +00:06:40 WK P.Shadya Ve
Rahu 16:26 Leo -00:06:54 FM P.Phalguni Ve
Ketu 16:26 Aqu -00:06:54 FM Shatbisha Ra
True Node 365.25 Day Year – Internet Time: 888 beats
Day: Wednesday Sunrise: 6:47 AM
Tithi: Krishna Ekadashi
Yoga Pt: 13:36 Vi Yogi:Mo AviYogi:Me Dup Yogi: Me
Dagha Rashis: Sag Pis
Sytems Approach Analysis
========================
Sun Bad Placement, In Old Age: 91%,
Moon Good Placement, Moon Not Bright 32%,
Mars Good Placement,
Mercury Bad Placement, Combust 14%,
Jupiter Good Placement,
Venus Good Placement,
Saturn Good Placement, Weak Dispositor,
Rahu Good Placement, Weak Dispositor,
Ketu Good Placement, Weak Dispositor,
Rashi Chart
*******************************************************
** 2 * * 12 **
*3 * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
*MAR21:17 * 1 AS 20:21 * 11 KE 16:26*
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
** * * **
*4 * 10 VE 12:00 *
** * * **
*5 * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * JU 16:49*
*RA 16:26 * 7 MO 10:43 * 9 SA 24:18*
* * * * * *
* * * ME 17:24* *
* * * * SU 29:33 * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
** 6 * * 8 **
*******************************************************
Shripati
*******************************************************
** 2 * * 12 **
*3 * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
*MAR * 1 AS * 11 KE *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
** * * VE **
*4 * 10 SA *
** * * **
*5 * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * SU *
*RA * 7 MO * 9 JU *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * ME * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
** 6 * * 8 **
*******************************************************
Iyer Analysis:
House Madhya Sandhi Nakshatra Lord
==========================================
1 20Ari22 02Ari48 Bharani Ve
2 15Tau15 02Tau48 Rohini Mo
3 10Gem08 27Tau41 Ardra Ra
4 05Can01 22Gem34 Pushya Sa
5 10Leo08 22Can34 Magha Ke
6 15Vir15 27Leo41 Hasta Mo
7 20Lib22 02Lib48 Vishakha Ju
8 15Sco15 02Sco48 Anuradha Sa
9 10Sag08 27Sco41 Mula Ke
10 05Cap01 22Sag34 U.Shadya Su
11 10Aqu08 22Cap34 Shatbisha Ra
12 15Pis15 27Aqu41 U.Bhadra Sa
Vimshottari Dasha/Buktis (Contemporary)
=======================================
Ra/Ra 23.6.1955
Ra/Ju 5.3.1958
Ra/Sa 29.7.1960
Ra/Me 5.6.1963
Ra/Ke 22.12.1965
Ra/Ve 10.1.1967
Ra/Su 9.1.1970
Ra/Mo 4.12.1970
Ra/Ma 4.6.1972
Ju/Ju 23.6.1973
Ju/Sa 11.8.1975
Ju/Me 21.2.1978
Ju/Ke 29.5.1980
Ju/Ve 5.5.1981
Ju/Su 4.1.1984
Ju/Mo 22.10.1984
Ju/Ma 21.2.1986
Ju/Ra 28.1.1987
Sa/Sa 23.6.1989
Sa/Me 25.6.1992
Sa/Ke 5.3.1995
Sa/Ve 13.4.1996
Sa/Su 14.6.1999
Sa/Mo 26.5.2000
Sa/Ma 25.12.2001
Sa/Ra 3.2.2003
Sa/Ju 10.12.2005
Me/Me 22.6.2008
Me/Ke 19.11.2010
Me/Ve 16.11.2011
Me/Su 16.9.2014
Me/Mo 23.7.2015
Me/Ma 22.12.2016
Me/Ra 19.12.2017
Me/Ju 7.7.2020
Me/Sa 13.10.2022
Ke/Ke 22.6.2025
Ke/Ve 19.11.2025
Ke/Su 19.1.2027
Ke/Mo 27.5.2027
Ke/Ma 26.12.2027
Ke/Ra 23.5.2028
Ke/Ju 10.6.2029
Ke/Sa 17.5.2030
Ke/Me 26.6.2031
Ve/Ve 22.6.2032
Ve/Su 23.10.2035
Ve/Mo 22.10.2036
Ve/Ma 23.6.2038
Ve/Ra 23.8.2039
Ve/Ju 23.8.2042
Ve/Sa 23.4.2045
Ve/Me 22.6.2048
Ve/Ke 23.4.2051
Su/Su 22.6.2052
Su/Mo 10.10.2052
Su/Ma 10.4.2053
Su/Ra 16.8.2053
Su/Ju 11.7.2054
Su/Sa 29.4.2055
Su/Me 10.4.2056
Su/Ke 15.2.2057
Su/Ve 23.6.2057
Mo/Mo 23.6.2058
Mo/Ma 23.4.2059
Mo/Ra 22.11.2059
Mo/Ju 23.5.2061
Mo/Sa 22.9.2062
Mo/Me 22.4.2064
Mo/Ke 22.9.2065
Mo/Ve 23.4.2066
Mo/Su 23.12.2067
Ma/Ma 22.6.2068
Ma/Ra 18.11.2068
Ma/Ju 7.12.2069
Ma/Sa 13.11.2070
Ma/Me 23.12.2071
Ma/Ke 19.12.2072
Ma/Ve 17.5.2073
Ma/Su 17.7.2074
Ma/Mo 22.11.2074
Aries with a strong 1st lord Mars on the most effective point of 3rd house suggests an entrepreneurial and adventurous person. The aspect of Ketu in 11th house does not create much disturbance, although siblings and friends may have spiritual quality. Distinction in sports at a young age is possible, notably between June 1972 and June 1973. Likely you have a clear voice. Aspect from 9th lord Jupiter and 11th lord Saturn in the 9th house gives luck and income to own efforts. Due to your outgoing nature, you are likely to have been blessed with son(s). There could be luck associated with older sibling, which reflects well on you. Rahu on the MEP of the 5th house with Sun as 5th lord in 8th house, suggests problems with university studies, children or speculation. Ketu in 11th house suggests sudden problems can pop up relating to income, friends and goals. The present transit station of the nodes in aspect to their natal placements suggests some situation has created significant strain during the summer months. This should diminish progressively from September 2010. Until June 2008 you were likely involved in foreign business dealings or higher/religious studies. From this time, some obstacles, possibly to do with conflict over inheritance, problems with debts or anxiety over medical condition, could be creating a disturbance in the family life. The weakness (old age) and bad placement of 5th lord Sun in 8th house indicates loss of or separation from father – although strong 9th lord Jupiter off-sets that, giving good paternal guidance in life. 4th lord Moon in 7th house suggests mother lived abroad or that interests were focused on foreign countries or on foreign travel. Strong 7th lord Venus in the 10th house suggests spouse has a prominent career or that you have foreign ties in career or are involved in the tourism industry. Sub-period of Ketu from November suggests a shift in focus from present situation. Better improvement is seen in Venus sub-period in November 2011.
Man, where to start…gah, this is long.
George W: “Jason and I are asking for someone to explain how the motion of planets and constellations can have any effect on random occurrences in our daily lives. If you believe in astrology, I assume that you must believe in this premise. If I am wrong I welcome your correction.”
Stand corrected. Your premise is wrong. Astrology is based on observation of people correlated to various components of the universe. A good example is the relatively recent discovery of Pluto. In modern times (since the discovery of the planets out past Saturn) astrology has done what it does best by correlating various astronomical discoveries with conditions of mankind, its activities, and the planet or computational/hypothetical point at the time of discovery. The discovery of Pluto correlated with such dreadful things as the Scottsboro Trials which moved the Civil Rights Movement ahead and the rise of Nazi Party which has caused an imprint on the collective unconscious that hopefully the world will never allow again. Astrology rightly associates Pluto with death and rebirth, among other things.
“George W.:[Quantum physics studies random particles and astrology is repeatable.]
You seem to be implying that random particles cause me to have a bad run at luck this week, or random particles at my birth made me an angry troll.”
Where on earth did this come from? I was commenting on science being based on repeatability and not facts, and connecting quantum physics random particles with the great world of What We Still Don’t Know About Science.
I haven’t the slightest notion what gave you a run of bad luck or made you a troll. If you consulted a trained, competent astrologer he or she might have some insight for you though.
Thor, you’ve got quite a lot of–maybe vedic astrology?–data posted here. I’m not an astrologer. I can’t identify your system I’m afraid. I’m glad to comment on your conclusions. Everything I’ll post is common knowledge, no secrets. I’ve cut-and-pasted them just to make it easier on me. 🙂
“Aries with a strong 1st lord Mars on the most effective point of 3rd house suggests an entrepreneurial and adventurous person…Aspect from 9th lord Jupiter and 11th lord Saturn in the 9th house gives luck and income to own efforts…Likely you have a clear voice.”
Singer. I was self-employed in show business for years. Earned enough to pay for part of my university studies. The only reason that’s significant is that the Screen Actors Guild once analyzed that only 10% of the people in show business ever earn anything at all, ever. I earned money and used it for my own support for some years.
“Ketu in 11th house suggests sudden problems can pop up relating to income, friends and goals…Rahu on the MEP of the 5th house with Sun as 5th lord in 8th house, suggests problems with university studies…”
Yep. April 2008 I retired on disability pension. I want to go back to school to pursue a Master’s in Transpersonal Studies but gotta get well first. I’m highly frustrated that my work on getting well hasn’t been as productive as I want. I’m ready to be well NOW.
“Distinction in sports at a young age is possible, notably between June 1972 and June 1973.”
Ha! Yes, I was the fastest runner at my middle school. I was running a race, fell down, and broke my arm in 1973.
“There could be luck associated with older sibling, which reflects well on you.”
No older sibling that my mother is aware of; however, my father was in the U. S. Navy during the Korean war, so, dunno.
“Rahu on the MEP of the 5th house with Sun as 5th lord in 8th house, suggests problems with…children or speculation…Due to your outgoing nature, you are likely to have been blessed with son(s).
Yeah. Four of my children died before they were born. I’ve blogged about my miscarriages.
“The aspect of Ketu in 11th house does not create much disturbance, although siblings and friends may have spiritual quality.”
I was a Secular Carmelite (OCDS) for some years before voluntarily withdrawing.
“The present transit station of the nodes in aspect to their natal placements suggests some situation has created significant strain during the summer months. This should diminish progressively from September 2010. Until June 2008 you were likely involved in foreign business dealings or higher/religious studies. From this time, some obstacles, possibly to do with conflict over inheritance, problems with debts or anxiety over medical condition, could be creating a disturbance in the family life. The weakness (old age) and bad placement of 5th lord Sun in 8th house indicates loss of or separation from father – although strong 9th lord Jupiter off-sets that, giving good paternal guidance in life.”
Oh this is spot-on. My father died here at home from metastasized prostate cancer in May 2008. I was in the midst of the worst spiritual attack I’ve ever dealt with, left-handed shamans or wizards or sorcerers as you will (the coven is now in new lines of business but not due to anything on my part other than prayer. God sent me help.). In trying to keep my head above water I was in a frantic inculcation by my helpers to a side of the spiritual world that I never knew existed until literally, it hit me dead in the chest – energy manipulation. I am still not an energy manipulator and never plan to be one but I had to learn what it was. In a hurry. It’s all over now but the healing.
I had been working handicapped for years but became completely unable to work and formally retired six weeks before my father died. My late father and I had issues but I’m grateful to say that more God-sent help has progressed resolution in the past 2 months. It wasn’t until I studied astrology that I understood his priceless gift of how to blend my Jupiter/Saturn conj. He was Saturn personified, Capricorn Sun and Moon. Learn to live with him and anyone could learn to thrive with Saturn placements. Thanks to him, I have “luck” with Saturn, you might say.
“4th lord Moon in 7th house suggests mother lived abroad or that interests were focused on foreign countries or on foreign travel.”
My parents eloped when my father was granted 2 week’s leave during the Korean War. He was stationed in Honolulu. In 3 days my mother went from living in a small town in Alabama to flying across the Pacific to Hawaii.
“Strong 7th lord Venus in the 10th house suggests spouse has a prominent career or that you have foreign ties in career or are involved in the tourism industry. Sub-period of Ketu from November suggests a shift in focus from present situation. Better improvement is seen in Venus sub-period in November 2011.”
Waiting…waiting…waiting for that fab foreigner man! 🙂
@Parin Stormlaughter
I stand uncorrected. You don’t get to rephrase my premise in a more technical and verbose way and claim that they are completely unrelated. To be simpler “things happening in the sky are correlated to seemingly unrelated things on earth” is to any rational persons mind, the very foundation of astrology as practiced by every astrologer. How, if I am wrong is that statement false on its face, not just lacking specifics?
@Jaime D.
Hi Jaime D
listen I’m all for the diamond approach – and I like your Polaris programme as both a test case and as a concept – what, one wonders, next…..
…..well, I would like to propose an offer – no-one on this blog, involved in this thread or any of the threads that by hook or by crook link in to this collection of posts, no-one knows me or my birth details – so ask Jamie to supply you with my contact e-mail, mail me in return and I will supply you with as many events from my life as you need to calculate my birth time using Polaris – this is genuine and above board
At the final analysis I am not interested in proving or disproving the credibility of either side of this argument, but, I see here an opportunity to move the debate on significantly with some tangibility
I cannot claim complete impartiality because I have the experiences and results which already prove the case to my own satisfaction anyway – also, this is not a strictly scientific approach as the general reader will have to take it on trust that I am genuine and honest in this – however, I strive in my endeavours for openmindedness simply because my own practice demands it of me (the hollow bone), because ‘one never knows’ and, I am heartened by the promise of your posts
yay or nay
JD – quick addendum to the above – for the sake of clarity/impartiality etc I am open to guidance on how this all might be followed thru
– I do have some questions prior to, specifically around defining birth time, but, will await your thumbs up/down etc first
@Parin Stormlaughter
Hi Parin,
One of the outstanding features of your chart concerns your 1st lord Mars and there the call on voice (singer), sports activities in 1972/73, own business and income, was convincingly affirmed. Sorry to hear about your 4 miscarriages. Your 5th lord Sun, ruling children and romance, is devoid of power in the 8th house of obstacles and endings. By itself it means that its indications never take birth. I thought your well placed Jupiter, which rules sons and husband, could grant you these, but was wrong. It is likely the 5th lord explains also the absence (or loss) of husband because it rules romance and joy in a relationship and Jupiter is closely afflicted by Rahu, which could have involved some trust issues. Absence of elder sibling suggest that the time reported is perhaps a few minutes earlier, as then the influence of Ketu on the 11th house is greater. Despite the good placement of Venus as 7th lord of spouse and foreign matters in the 10th house of career, the romance or communication could have been a weak spot in getting married or keeping the marriage going. The indications for the father are also linked to the Sun as a general indicator and Jupiter as the 9th lord, or the functional indicator. While I got the father right, I may have given too much weight to the indications of the Sun in the reading, such that the indications of children never took birth, as opposed to having them and then having problems with them. Well, the reading was done in a jiffy as time is scarce, but came out well where the indications in the chart are unambiguous. I rarely do readings for individuals, confining my attention to mundane (national) charts on my blog and SAMVA list. In this case I wanted to see how far I’d get and also as your chart looked interesting.
Thor, I was very impressed. I thought you did a fine job. Everybody around here knows the story of my parents’ elopement but nobody has yet mentioned seeing it in my natal chart, for instance.
George W., you’ve run out of arguments you know.
Observing events occur together doesn’t establish cause and effect. You’re wrong to demand that astrology defend your incorrect assumption.
Even in quantum physics, the mirror particle doesn’t take on characteristics until the observations of the first particle takes place – the two particles are not already mirrors before measurement, I mean.
Another example: when smoking tobacco was discovered to be correlated to lung cancer, coffee drinking was considered to the primary damaging factor. There was a huge outcry that coffee drinking caused lung cancer. When the data was reanalyzed, the data miners discovered that smokers very frequently smoked a cigarette when having a cup of coffee. Accounting for that, the more likely culprit, tobacco, emerged.
The discovery of Pluto did not contribute to the rise of the Nazi Party; however they did, in fact, occur close together. Careful observation of mankind’s worldly life showed a clear connection between the astrologer’s interpretation of Pluto and world and life events. That’s how astrology functions.
So, yeah, not much more you say there dude.
Let the straw man’s embers glow undisturbed.
I may have to call it a day on this thread. I’m tired and my head hurts.
Jason and George W have been discovered and my head hurts; therefore, they are the direct and indisputable cause of Skeptical Head Pain Syndrome.
I have no idea how to build an ephemeris for them. That would be a huge ton o’fun though wouldn’t it? B)
Just so I can get a lay of the land, is there any value at this juncture of actually doing that cross-posting, as I promised Jamie, and as was my original intent? You remember, the argument that so far pretty well everyone has either dismissed without evidence or told me was based on incorrect assumptions without providing a proper framework that actually negates my claims?
@Marina
“I am not a creationist Jason. As you can see we have quite a few Christian regulars on our blog, despite us writing very Christian-critical posts here. We still get along. But we are probably closer to you in our Agnosticism.
At the same time we are mystics I guess, while science is your God. There is no getting away from belief systems whichever way you turn.”
HO to that Marina – sounds like a good departure point
Jamie and Marina
A debate on natural law, full on.
The law of Continuity, Its the one.
Not quite sure what it is, but its the only one that tests both the spitual and physical.
One day I want a birth chart done.
Thanks, enjoy your blog emensely.
even though its beyond me.
The sun,
a very big star
will prove astrology,
scientifically
soon.
Hi Jason,
I think it would be a bit “after a fashion now” wouldn’t it? I think Jamie and I have learn a lot from this. We are relatively new to the Blogsphere, you rightly said we need to develop a thick skin from the criticism we will get by putting ourselves out there.
But as I said before. This is our livelihood and shop front, your blog is not. We need to clean the eggs off our glass,from time to time, so as not to distract from our work. For you the eggs are part of your work.
I would’ve liked to see your chart purely for the synastry with Jamie. It would’ve just been interesting to know what you represented for HIM!
But I think this is worth repeating. Thanks LB! This says it all for me.
I am not a creationist Jason. As you can see we have quite a few Christian regulars on our blog, despite us writing very Christian-critical posts here. We still get along. But we are probably closer to you in our Agnosticism.
At the same time we are mystics I guess, while science is your God. There is no getting away from belief systems whichever way you turn.
Marina, while I strongly disagree with that insofar as if I believe in anything, it is that evidence is paramount, I won’t draw this out any longer than necessary. I agree with Rob (again) — this is a good departure point. We’ve agreed to disagree and we’ll disengage.
Please understand that through all this, I’ve never meant you as persons any harm. Good luck to you both.
I am glad that I was able to take part in this exchange, even if I feel like I’m walking away sorely lacking the information I was hoping for.
In many ways I wish that this thread and the one over at Jason’s site had not descended into character assassinations and petty quibbling over minutiae.
At the risk of sounding passive-aggressive -I have always been under the impression that astrology tries to draw causal correlations between the movement of celestial bodies and events in peoples lives. I have been corrected in this belief.
I am somewhat heartened to learn that astrologers do not believe this true. This was my major difficulty with astrology. As near I can tell from Parin’s description, a more fair description is that astrology takes events that have happened already and searches the heavens to look for patterns that may or may not have played some part in the event.
I am glad we can depart agreeing on the premise that celestial movements have no effect on seemingly unrelated events in our daily lives.
As Marina, Rob, and Jason have said, now is a good time to call the exchange a wash.
I would like to make the honest offer that if any of you want to take the time to clarify astrology and have a reasonable discussion (“school me”, so to speak) I will not turn you away. I will listen, ask questions, likely disagree, but remain open to your ideas.
As Jason has said, I offer no ill will toward any of you, I wish Jamie and Marina all the best.
I approach Astrology as an art in that I use it to “paint” a picture of a person, place or time. Some say that Astrology mirrors rather than predicts. Astrological forecasting is somewhat like meteorological forecasting- they look at jet streams and air currents and put it all together to give you their interpretation of the most likely outcome. Sometimes they’re wrong. They are as much of an artist as we are. As astrologers, we look at planets, stars, moons, (and a lot of astrologers use the transneptunian objects as well) etc. and notice unfolding patterns, and then give our interpretation. I think that eventually, with the study of fractals and chaos theory, scientists will be able to conclude that Astrology can be explained through the paradigms of those scientific standards. We don’t move around in space, we’re part of it. Everything has its own energy, and makes more of a difference than you think it does.
@George W.
Hello George W. I am of the view that astrology should be approached like any other scientific inquiry, even if it is difficult to control for a large host of factors, as is done in most scientific experiments. In my view, the problem with much of astroloy today is that it is based on a historical mistake in its axiomatic principles. cosmologer.blogspot.com/2010/07/ptolemys-mistake-and-origin-of-western.html
As a result, many astrologers have given up on prediction and look for patterns after the fact. Please be advised: that is not real astrology. The simple reason is that if astrology can’t predict, it also cannot explain.
Another article of potential interest is “What is Astrology?” from December 2007. Best regards, Thor
WOW I missed alot the last week! May need to reread this one a few times!
@Thor
Great article. Thanks for posting the link. I always thought Ptolemy was a bit suspect. But funny how ingrained he is into western astrology, to the point of the adherance to Ptolemic aspects. Because of him the quincunx is often played down, but I’m increasingly finding this aspect as V strongly felt as certainly a sextile if not more so. Which is why we include them in our aspects research.
I did look into Western Sidereal astrology for a while and I do believe it is far more true to the signs working that way. I have noticed people born at the end of signs (ie so that they have the same sidereal as western sunsign) ARE actually very typical of their sun. Jamie is a great example of a Virgo!
@Marina
Thank you for the kind feedback. The SA vedic aspects are somewhat different from western aspects. All planets cast conjunction and opposition aspects. In addtion to this, Jupiter, Rahu and Ketu also cast the trine aspect; Mars also casts a forward square and a forward quinquinx aspect and Saturn casts a forward sextile and a backward square. (for clarity: Sun, Moon, Mercury and Venus only cast conj. & opp.). Moreover, these aspects come with an orb of 5° with the most influence when exact.
Interestingly, in Vedic, while the Sun and the sign Leo are held in high esteem, the key to the reading revolves around the rising sign.
@Thor
That article on Ptolemy is an excellent read. You have pin pointed the critical problem with Hellenistic or Horoscopic astrology – ignorance of precession. Deborah Houldings seems to be saying in Heavenly Imprints that it was just too threatening to their system to acknowledge it.
“Although Hipparchus (c. 190-120 BC), credited with discovering the precession of the equinoxes, provided indisputable evidence of the phenomenom during the process of correcting earlier star charts, many of his contemporaries dismissed his findings, reluctant to relinquish their traditional beliefs. Hence, even as late as 77 AD, we find the Roman Historian Pliny ignoring his discoveries, writing in his Natural History that the Sun ‘changes its course’ at the 8th degree of Aries, in complete disregard to Hipparchus’s work.”