Astrology Skeptics

Salem Witch Trial

Salem Witch Trial

Most astrologers will have to deal with harassment from skeptics in their lives. If skeptics or trolls contaminate an astrologers website it is not pleasant but easily fixed, just delete and ban them.

What is more unpleasant and not so easy to deal with is skeptics slandering and ridiculing the work of an astrologer on their own website. We have less control over this situation. Should we react or let the public slander go unchallenged?

Historically astrologers have just copped the punishment. Most of the Celtic Druids were slaughtered on the Isle of Angelsey in AD 60. The Roman Catholic Inquisitions and witch hunts by other institutionalized lynch mobs put countless astrologers in prison or led to their torture and often death

. It’s not surprising given the 2000 years of persecution that astrologers tend to be a little defensive when faced with personal attacks from skeptics these days.

Astrology is no longer a heresy punishable by death. We are free to study our craft and If we chose we can make it our profession and try to make a living from it. In much the same way as a naturopath is free to study and make a profession out of herbal medicine. If a naturopath has a website as a shopfront to share information and solicit business, they would not take kindly to skeptics defaming their reputation on other websites, in a public forum.

In the last few days our website has been defamed and ridiculed by some skeptics. They linked to my blog about the oil spill so I became aware of it via the ping-back. I commented on that blog saying it would have been more polite for them to have commented on my blog. I debated with them for a while and invited them to comment on something specific about my work, on my blog, instead of trying to disprove astrology in general.

Should I have ignored the slanderous blog? Deepwater Horizon foretold by astrology!!! (Well, post-told). Well I did feed the trolls which has led to If it smells like Funk, it must be astrology and People braver than I with choice quotes like “astrology is so obviously ridiculous that I don’t think I’d have the patience to deal with the peddlers of such trash”, “obvious fakery” and “making shit up and dressing it up as reality”.

True it would not have escalated if I had not reacted. They are not burning me at the stake, but it is a psychological attack and it is also an attack on how I make my living. I guess that is why I reacted, I don’t want to lay down an take the insults. Astrology is a legitimate profession and we should be proud of our craft and our history, many thousands of years as an integral part of society in all cultures. Something strong inside me doesn’t want to let the skeptics get away with continuing the persecution.

That original attack on my oil spill was posted less than one day after the recent solar eclipse which fell right on my Descendant, ruler of one-to-one relationships which included close allies such as the partner, and also open enemies. Fortunately my Descendant is sextile Jupiter by just 6 minutes. The solar eclipse was sextile Mars in the sky, and Mars was conjunct my Jupiter. That explains why I went wanted to fight.

104 thoughts on “Astrology Skeptics

  1. Oh man, Rob, Scorpio NN in 12th? If you tell me your Neptune is in 6th, I’ll ask you to pray for ME.

    Jason, are you listening? Jason!

    If astrology is all in the realm of faith, have faith that your faith in its bunked-ness is correct.

    I’ll put my birth info out there and you put yours. Anybody who wishes can have a go.

    Parin Stormlaughter
    December 14, 1960
    2:18PM
    Tuscaloosa, Alabama, USA

    Please tell me anything you can show analysis for and Jason, we’ll do you the same courtesy (meaning no ‘you’re a meanie because I just feel it in my bones’).

    Personality question about overall open-mindedness balanced with discernment ability, how about? That’s one I’ve never submitted to anyone so I have no preconceived notion.

    🙂

  2. There is nothing wrong with Science. I enjoy it. Hell, I’ve taken two science-related courses (Astronomy and another Geological one) in the past few months and excelled at them.

    And you know what I realized? It’s not Science that’s a problem. It’s ARROGANT, wannabe-scholarly-and-above-thee types who ruin science for everyone else. Science is amazing. It really is. But even this form of study doesn’t have all the answers.

    In Astronomy, there are tons of galaxies we don’t know a patootie about yet. What about that?

    I hate when someone like Jason takes a form of study, be it a religious, scientific or metaphysical one, and refers to it as gospel. It is annoying and just plain childish. Nothing is perfect, and just because he doesn’t agree with your field, or that of anyone else, it doesn’t mean he should make a complete jackass of himself.

  3. But Jason, honey, you’ve set up incorrect assumptions about astrology and asked for defense of them. It’s a common spin technique but utterly transparent.

    Astrology as all about charts. It is not about gravity. Astrology is all about individual situations and events. It’s not about generalizations and talking points.

    And what on earth does creationism have to do with this debate anyway?

    And wow, selection bias! Never heard that one as a reason why astrology could not work. Makes me wonder if your ex-wife was well trained and competent in astrology if selection bias swayed her.

    Really – I posted the open-mindedness question when I posted my birth information because that’s how astrology operates. Yeah, it’s possible to make generalized personality assumptions or to try to guess what the person is really wanting to know. But time, date, location–exact time, exact date, exact location–are the primary data input into the ephemeral computer. Bad input, bad output. Garbage in, garbage out.

    You wussed out of the challenge, in my opinion.

  4. I’ve promised myself I wouldn’t spend much time online today, but I just can’t let this particular comment pass.

    @Teri
    It’s evident you didn’t read my blog, or the comments therein. I can tell because you think nobody in my family or circle of friends has ever consulted an astrologer. In fact, in one of my comments, I pointed out that I married an ex-astrologer. She did all sorts of natal charts for people, and she thought she was “the real deal” and that horoscopes in papers and interpreting sun signs were crap. She has since discovered it was all selection bias, mind you, and that reality is really cool when you let it tell you about itself, but hey. That won’t stop any of you from making assumptions and insinuations that can be so easily disproven just by going over to the offending article and actually reading it.

    So far this entire thread has devolved into telling me that I don’t have any facts to back me up, or that I follow some kind of scriptural dogmatic science religion, or personal attacks on my character. I don’t mind those. I’m actually quite used to them. I’ve fought for years on the internet against creationists trying to replace scientific teachings with “the earth was made by God six thousand years ago, evidence be damned”, so I’ve had every one of those attacks levelled at me. I’m pretty inured at this point. The only one of you that seems to have their heads about them is Rob, who (while he incorrectly assumes I fear character assassination) actually understands that this “debate” isn’t going to go anywhere as long as it’s driven out of some kind of attempt at hectoring.

    Everything else, about people trying to peer-pressure me into proving religion is true by quoting the bible err sorry, proving astrology is true by doing my natal chart, can stop barking up that tree. Unless someone decides to be super-creepy as Deb suggested they should (I work in IT, I know how easy it is to obtain personal information about someone without their consent, but if you do it, you’re doing it without my consent, ergo creepy, capisce?), there will be no interpreting my astrological influences when you could find out everything you could ever want to know about me, my personality, et cetera, from my blog.

    I’ve set the terms for what I want to actually talk about — that being my concerns about astrology, how it could work, and how I suspect it probably can’t. I’d like evidence to back up that the planets have any sort of influence on humankind whatsoever, outside of the few we know — Jupiter sweeps away asteroids, giving us a better shot at life; the moon drives our tides and churns our oceans; and the sun provides us with all the energy we need to overcome entropy. I know, I know, you can do a chart and find out why things happened after the fact via your framework, but have you ever tried doing up the wrong date for an event and explaining that event with the incorrect chart? Have you noticed how you can pretty well explain any event with any chart if you try hard enough? Outside of post-hoc rationalizations (e.g. doing charts after events), what proof do you have that there’s any kind of effect? Have you measured that effect? What drives the effect, and how does it affect only who and what it does?

    Those questions, and more, are asked in my post, and I strongly welcome any of you to answer them. You know, rather than this unproductive and one-sided screaming. Again, if nobody’s interested in actually debating what I’ve posted, I’ll consider the matter closed, with no willing participants. I’d prefer Jamie do it, since he’s the one who challenged me, but if someone can give me any kind of explanation outside of “science can’t explain astrology” (which equals “you need faith”) in my mind, please take a shot at it! That’s why I’m here, and I’ll leave if I don’t get it.

    (On second thought, if you just want to be rid of me, thinking I’m nought but a troll, then maybe you should just stand around and call me names and demand my birth information some more. I know when nobody’s serious about actually defending their beliefs in the context of the evidence to the contrary.)

  5. Parin Stormlaughter :
    But Jason, honey, you’ve set up incorrect assumptions about astrology and asked for defense of them. It’s a common spin technique but utterly transparent.

    Please be more specific. Which assumptions in my post are incorrect?

    If you’re referring solely to my systematically eliminating each of the four fundamental forces that drive this universe as a possible vehicle for astrology’s influence as being an “assumption”, then you misunderstood the argument. The point was not to set up gravity as a strawman then knock it down. The point was to say there is NO force that can act over a distance in the way you posit, if none of those four fundamental forces can be the cause.

  6. There’s your straw man. Astrology is based on recorded observation over time. It’s not based on the currently-known laws of physics which have been fairly recently deduced. I do not know of a single trained and competent astrologer who draws a connection between the currently-known laws of physics and the thousands of years of astrological observation that are included in the practice of astrology. If you know of any by name, please let us know. I can always be wrong. I don’t believe I am in this instance.

    To attempt to debunk astrology by doing nothing more than pointing to astrology’s disinterest in currently-known laws of physics is to make our point.

    Honestly, quantum physics is much more likely to provide a window into astrology than other scientific disciplines. I do follow advances in quantum physics as closely as a laywoman can. I was not a physics major but did study under Tom Wdowiak.

    Stay tuned to quantum physics if astrology doesn’t do it for you. Quantum physics is weird and inexplicable, and seems to be getting more weird every time the super collider data get more analysis.

    And avoid asking an physics scientist to operate without data for his or her formulas, which is metaphorically what you’re doing right now in this astrology debate. Astrological formulas were developed from thousands of years of observation. Formulas and data are as critical to the practice of astrology as they are to a physics scientist.

    But again, astrology is not pure science. Nor is it a pure mathematical discipline. It combines elements of both with judgment and intuition to create a product that’s useful rather than hypothetical or “science for science’s sake”.

    It is possible to combine the known with the unknown. Dr. Wdowiak once gave us the formula for pre-cognition. He explained how it worked. It was 30 years ago exactly and I’ve lost the piece of paper on which I had written it but I clearly remember his explanation. If you’re interested I’ll share.

    Mostly, just let the straw man burn down now why not? Science will never debunk astrology just as it will never debunk the art side of the practice of medicine, for instance.

    I’ll leave the challenge open if you feel up to it.

  7. You guys dont have to prove anything. I would just let them slander away…

  8. Those of us with firsthand experience know that someone’s denouncement of astrology doesn’t make astrology any less valid. Nor does someone’s disbelief in God (or a divine source) make them any less loved by that source, or any less deserving of respect. As a Christian who also studies astrology, I believe God gave Jason free will to decide to believe or not, as he chooses. Jason shouldn’t have to justify his skepticism to us any more than any of us should have to justify our beliefs to him.

    Whether or not we agree with Jason on various issues, his blog is devoted to providing a safe environment for atheists and other ‘non-believers’ to express themselves, so it comes as no big surprise he would not respect the work of astrologers – Jamie included. Just as astrologers have been injured by the insults of skeptics, I suspect many non-believers have been deeply wounded by some very real hypocrisies as others try to discount their worthiness . . . which in turn leads to a desire to discount those who believe. It becomes a pointlessly vicious cycle of exclusion without resolution.

    As someone who has engaged in an internet exchange from time to time, I understand the value in occasionally setting the record straight. And I can understand the impulse that led Jamie to defend his position. But sometimes there just isn’t enough common ground to make the discussion worth continuing – far better to let it go and wish each other well.

    That’s all I wanted to say; I don’t plan on debating anyone.

  9. @Jason Thibeault

    “The only one of you that seems to have their heads about them is Rob”

    thanks for the endorsement, but, man, I lost my head years ago when my ex was murdered by a rampant medicine man (grew some useful replacements tho – look out for that Lilith/Pluto connection!!) – actually it was a seminal moment (understatement) and turning point, a crossroads out of which my current practice emerged, not in defiance, but, out of the understanding I gained as a result and continue to gain – serious sh*t bro – and I have the feeling that the kind of technology that fuels my practice would scare the sh*t out of yus

  10. …once upon a time, one studied both “science” and “science”.. an assortment of those would be medicine, botany, geography, astronomy, astrology and so on. The map of the world was speculated upon, and most of what we call hard science today was merely speculation and philosophical debate, usually at that point in time debated by religious scholars and various people of the establishment at the time.

    Now in the confrontation of an archaic view of the world where only “science” is the point of view accepted by the majority, where those who have no time to look beyond surface and can not explore the mathematical and meaning and psychologically driven by egotistical personalities we see those who consider themselves of “science” “debunking” or outwardly attacking a science of the past.

    What is sinister about this is that it comes from a mindset that declares it has a monopoly on what would be considered “truth” where in all honest no one individual has any hold upon what exactly truth is, for in this day and age, I have seen things that are constantly being “debunked” by what other people call “experts”.

    Remember that the establishment within the scientific community believe they represent the truth and they construct this manipulation that they know what it is and how it works, when even Keplar stated when he could not measure the relationship of molecular structure, that he could not do so, but suspected that it worked thus so but maybe in the future we could see this relationship.. he was being a truthful scientist. Keplar was also not only a Scientist with a large S, but a fine example of an astrologer. WE have this in common, a history, a heritage as astrologers with those of the so called “established scientific community” much in the same way “witches” are the common ancestry of the the medical establishment, psychologists, botanists and homeopathic medicine.

    Its obvious that some people just have an axe to grind. Leave them to their own beheading, but keep you neck clearly away from their virtual outcries.

    Jamie..keep up your work, and damn the critics.

  11. I love this blog, please please don’t stop posting these brilliant articles just because of cowards who spend their time (wasted in my opinion) looking for topics to try and shred with their self righteous pontification – always hidden behind the safety of a keyboard…

    I am (as I am sure others are too) waiting impatiently (taurus with aries moon!)for more articles on your blog 🙂

  12. @Parin Stormlaughter
    I’m assuming you can guess that it was accidental. In fact when I first posted it the redundant part was absent. I apologize.
    Jamie: Feel free to correct that mistake.

    What both you and Jason have done is set up a straw man about astrology and demand that an astrologer defend the straw man. Your and Jason’s assertions about astrology, in a general sense, are incorrect and obviously set out as bait. Why on earth would you expect anyone to bite?

    I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what a strawman is. Jason and I are asking for someone to explain how the motion of planets and constellations can have any effect on random occurrences in our daily lives. If you believe in astrology, I assume that you must believe in this premise. If I am wrong I welcome your correction.
    A strawman would be having Jamie defend sun signs or horoscopes when he does not in fact use them. Neither I nor Jason has ever asked him to do any such thing. Apart from a purposely ironic title for a post I wrote, no-one has made mention of horoscopes at all.

    Quantum physics studies random particles and astrology is repeatable.

    You seem to be implying that random particles cause me to have a bad run at luck this week, or random particles at my birth made me an angry troll. Well that’s a hypothesis, let’s run with it shall we? Please show me how this works.
    Astrology is repeatable how exactly? That it can be used again and again to say “I told you that would happen, well, I didn’t really tell you, but my method explains why after the fact” Of what use is it if it only tells us stuff we already know? If it can’t make useful predictions it is just a parlour game, a fun giggle over drinks and friends.
    What Dawkins is getting at with the quote you use is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, the onus is not on the skeptic but on the supernaturalist.

  13. Marina/Jamie

    This guy is obviously a narcissistic idiot just fishing for attention! For starters anyone who is atheist is a small minded, small spirited indiviual on some sort of an ego/power trip.

    Come on guys – You know what happens when you give a dog a choice between a diamond and a piece of shit – he will choose a piece of shit every time! That is exactly what this man has chosen – shit.

    Obviously he is not even on the radar when it comes to matters of heart, soul and spirit so to even acknowledge his existence as someone who can even understand such matters is a waste of valuable time that you both can be helping those of us who thirst for knowledge in these areas because we are “SPIRITUALLY AWAKE!” We choose the diamond!

    KEEP FIGHTING THE GOOD FIGHT!!

    XO

  14. @Jamie

    Jamie :

    This is just astounding. You are happy to believe what Jason writes about someones elses work in a field neither of you have studied. Have a laugh and kick it around a bit, but if the author of the work objects then then you all get upset.

    Is it really astounding Jamie? I was skeptical of astrology long before Jason wrote that post. I don’t think I need to be an expert on astrology to discount it as bunk any more than you need to be an expert on invisible pink unicorns to distrust me if I assert that one brewed my coffee for me this morning.
    I am a skeptic, not an asshole. If you can put forth real proof that astrology is anything more than using confirmation bias to selectively choose signs from the heavens to explain phenomena then I will concede your victory.
    As to your next comment about me not knowing what advice you give your clients, I don’t need to know. I conceded in my comments that it might be good advice, it might even be sage advice. It is still advice derived from a faulty methodology.

  15. @James
    James,
    What you offer here is very interesting. That one could give someone an accurate birthtime based on events in their life is a testable hypothesis. I admit that I am still skeptical, but I applaud you for finally offering a concrete falsifiable prediction that astrology can make.
    I am very interested and plan on investigating it further.
    If this hypothesis is correct and independently testable, I would gladly retract my statement that astrology has no predictive power.

  16. @Parin Stormlaughter

    Hi Parin, I´ll give it a shot. Mostly a reading of natal potential and major trends and one important short term transit influence. Hope it is helpful.

    Parin Stormlaughter
    Dec 14, 1960 2:18 PM +06:00 CST
    Tuscaloosa, AL:USA Longitude: 87W34 Latitude: 33N13
    Lahiri Ayanamsha: 23:18 Current Period: ME/ME/SA

    Planet Deg Sign Speed SA Nakshatra Lord
    ================================================
    Asc 20:21 Ari Bharani Ve
    Sun 29:33 Sco +01:01:04 WK Jyeshtha Me
    Moon 10:43 Lib +13:45:42 WK Swati Ra
    MarsR 21:17 Gem -00:19:23 ST Punarvasu Ju
    Merc 17:24 Sco +01:31:32 FM Jyeshtha Me
    Jupt 16:49 Sag +00:13:37 WK P.Shadya Ve
    Ven 12:00 Cap +01:10:51 ST Shravana Mo
    Sat 24:18 Sag +00:06:40 WK P.Shadya Ve
    Rahu 16:26 Leo -00:06:54 FM P.Phalguni Ve
    Ketu 16:26 Aqu -00:06:54 FM Shatbisha Ra

    True Node 365.25 Day Year – Internet Time: 888 beats
    Day: Wednesday Sunrise: 6:47 AM
    Tithi: Krishna Ekadashi
    Yoga Pt: 13:36 Vi Yogi:Mo AviYogi:Me Dup Yogi: Me
    Dagha Rashis: Sag Pis

    Sytems Approach Analysis
    ========================
    Sun Bad Placement, In Old Age: 91%,
    Moon Good Placement, Moon Not Bright 32%,
    Mars Good Placement,
    Mercury Bad Placement, Combust 14%,
    Jupiter Good Placement,
    Venus Good Placement,
    Saturn Good Placement, Weak Dispositor,
    Rahu Good Placement, Weak Dispositor,
    Ketu Good Placement, Weak Dispositor,

    Rashi Chart
    *******************************************************
    ** 2 * * 12 **
    *3 * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    *MAR21:17 * 1 AS 20:21 * 11 KE 16:26*
    * * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    ** * * **
    *4 * 10 VE 12:00 *
    ** * * **
    *5 * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    * * * * * JU 16:49*
    *RA 16:26 * 7 MO 10:43 * 9 SA 24:18*
    * * * * * *
    * * * ME 17:24* *
    * * * * SU 29:33 * *
    * * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    ** 6 * * 8 **
    *******************************************************

    Shripati
    *******************************************************
    ** 2 * * 12 **
    *3 * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    *MAR * 1 AS * 11 KE *
    * * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    ** * * VE **
    *4 * 10 SA *
    ** * * **
    *5 * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    * * * * * SU *
    *RA * 7 MO * 9 JU *
    * * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    * * * * ME * *
    * * * * * *
    * * * * * *
    ** 6 * * 8 **
    *******************************************************

    Iyer Analysis:
    House Madhya Sandhi Nakshatra Lord
    ==========================================
    1 20Ari22 02Ari48 Bharani Ve
    2 15Tau15 02Tau48 Rohini Mo
    3 10Gem08 27Tau41 Ardra Ra
    4 05Can01 22Gem34 Pushya Sa
    5 10Leo08 22Can34 Magha Ke
    6 15Vir15 27Leo41 Hasta Mo
    7 20Lib22 02Lib48 Vishakha Ju
    8 15Sco15 02Sco48 Anuradha Sa
    9 10Sag08 27Sco41 Mula Ke
    10 05Cap01 22Sag34 U.Shadya Su
    11 10Aqu08 22Cap34 Shatbisha Ra
    12 15Pis15 27Aqu41 U.Bhadra Sa

    Vimshottari Dasha/Buktis (Contemporary)
    =======================================
    Ra/Ra 23.6.1955
    Ra/Ju 5.3.1958
    Ra/Sa 29.7.1960
    Ra/Me 5.6.1963
    Ra/Ke 22.12.1965
    Ra/Ve 10.1.1967
    Ra/Su 9.1.1970
    Ra/Mo 4.12.1970
    Ra/Ma 4.6.1972
    Ju/Ju 23.6.1973
    Ju/Sa 11.8.1975
    Ju/Me 21.2.1978
    Ju/Ke 29.5.1980
    Ju/Ve 5.5.1981
    Ju/Su 4.1.1984
    Ju/Mo 22.10.1984
    Ju/Ma 21.2.1986
    Ju/Ra 28.1.1987
    Sa/Sa 23.6.1989
    Sa/Me 25.6.1992
    Sa/Ke 5.3.1995
    Sa/Ve 13.4.1996
    Sa/Su 14.6.1999
    Sa/Mo 26.5.2000
    Sa/Ma 25.12.2001
    Sa/Ra 3.2.2003
    Sa/Ju 10.12.2005
    Me/Me 22.6.2008
    Me/Ke 19.11.2010
    Me/Ve 16.11.2011
    Me/Su 16.9.2014
    Me/Mo 23.7.2015
    Me/Ma 22.12.2016
    Me/Ra 19.12.2017
    Me/Ju 7.7.2020
    Me/Sa 13.10.2022
    Ke/Ke 22.6.2025
    Ke/Ve 19.11.2025
    Ke/Su 19.1.2027
    Ke/Mo 27.5.2027
    Ke/Ma 26.12.2027
    Ke/Ra 23.5.2028
    Ke/Ju 10.6.2029
    Ke/Sa 17.5.2030
    Ke/Me 26.6.2031
    Ve/Ve 22.6.2032
    Ve/Su 23.10.2035
    Ve/Mo 22.10.2036
    Ve/Ma 23.6.2038
    Ve/Ra 23.8.2039
    Ve/Ju 23.8.2042
    Ve/Sa 23.4.2045
    Ve/Me 22.6.2048
    Ve/Ke 23.4.2051
    Su/Su 22.6.2052
    Su/Mo 10.10.2052
    Su/Ma 10.4.2053
    Su/Ra 16.8.2053
    Su/Ju 11.7.2054
    Su/Sa 29.4.2055
    Su/Me 10.4.2056
    Su/Ke 15.2.2057
    Su/Ve 23.6.2057
    Mo/Mo 23.6.2058
    Mo/Ma 23.4.2059
    Mo/Ra 22.11.2059
    Mo/Ju 23.5.2061
    Mo/Sa 22.9.2062
    Mo/Me 22.4.2064
    Mo/Ke 22.9.2065
    Mo/Ve 23.4.2066
    Mo/Su 23.12.2067
    Ma/Ma 22.6.2068
    Ma/Ra 18.11.2068
    Ma/Ju 7.12.2069
    Ma/Sa 13.11.2070
    Ma/Me 23.12.2071
    Ma/Ke 19.12.2072
    Ma/Ve 17.5.2073
    Ma/Su 17.7.2074
    Ma/Mo 22.11.2074

    Aries with a strong 1st lord Mars on the most effective point of 3rd house suggests an entrepreneurial and adventurous person. The aspect of Ketu in 11th house does not create much disturbance, although siblings and friends may have spiritual quality. Distinction in sports at a young age is possible, notably between June 1972 and June 1973. Likely you have a clear voice. Aspect from 9th lord Jupiter and 11th lord Saturn in the 9th house gives luck and income to own efforts. Due to your outgoing nature, you are likely to have been blessed with son(s). There could be luck associated with older sibling, which reflects well on you. Rahu on the MEP of the 5th house with Sun as 5th lord in 8th house, suggests problems with university studies, children or speculation. Ketu in 11th house suggests sudden problems can pop up relating to income, friends and goals. The present transit station of the nodes in aspect to their natal placements suggests some situation has created significant strain during the summer months. This should diminish progressively from September 2010. Until June 2008 you were likely involved in foreign business dealings or higher/religious studies. From this time, some obstacles, possibly to do with conflict over inheritance, problems with debts or anxiety over medical condition, could be creating a disturbance in the family life. The weakness (old age) and bad placement of 5th lord Sun in 8th house indicates loss of or separation from father – although strong 9th lord Jupiter off-sets that, giving good paternal guidance in life. 4th lord Moon in 7th house suggests mother lived abroad or that interests were focused on foreign countries or on foreign travel. Strong 7th lord Venus in the 10th house suggests spouse has a prominent career or that you have foreign ties in career or are involved in the tourism industry. Sub-period of Ketu from November suggests a shift in focus from present situation. Better improvement is seen in Venus sub-period in November 2011.

  17. Man, where to start…gah, this is long.

    George W: “Jason and I are asking for someone to explain how the motion of planets and constellations can have any effect on random occurrences in our daily lives. If you believe in astrology, I assume that you must believe in this premise. If I am wrong I welcome your correction.”

    Stand corrected. Your premise is wrong. Astrology is based on observation of people correlated to various components of the universe. A good example is the relatively recent discovery of Pluto. In modern times (since the discovery of the planets out past Saturn) astrology has done what it does best by correlating various astronomical discoveries with conditions of mankind, its activities, and the planet or computational/hypothetical point at the time of discovery. The discovery of Pluto correlated with such dreadful things as the Scottsboro Trials which moved the Civil Rights Movement ahead and the rise of Nazi Party which has caused an imprint on the collective unconscious that hopefully the world will never allow again. Astrology rightly associates Pluto with death and rebirth, among other things.

    “George W.:[Quantum physics studies random particles and astrology is repeatable.]

    You seem to be implying that random particles cause me to have a bad run at luck this week, or random particles at my birth made me an angry troll.”

    Where on earth did this come from? I was commenting on science being based on repeatability and not facts, and connecting quantum physics random particles with the great world of What We Still Don’t Know About Science.

    I haven’t the slightest notion what gave you a run of bad luck or made you a troll. If you consulted a trained, competent astrologer he or she might have some insight for you though.

    Thor, you’ve got quite a lot of–maybe vedic astrology?–data posted here. I’m not an astrologer. I can’t identify your system I’m afraid. I’m glad to comment on your conclusions. Everything I’ll post is common knowledge, no secrets. I’ve cut-and-pasted them just to make it easier on me. 🙂

    “Aries with a strong 1st lord Mars on the most effective point of 3rd house suggests an entrepreneurial and adventurous person…Aspect from 9th lord Jupiter and 11th lord Saturn in the 9th house gives luck and income to own efforts…Likely you have a clear voice.”

    Singer. I was self-employed in show business for years. Earned enough to pay for part of my university studies. The only reason that’s significant is that the Screen Actors Guild once analyzed that only 10% of the people in show business ever earn anything at all, ever. I earned money and used it for my own support for some years.

    “Ketu in 11th house suggests sudden problems can pop up relating to income, friends and goals…Rahu on the MEP of the 5th house with Sun as 5th lord in 8th house, suggests problems with university studies…”

    Yep. April 2008 I retired on disability pension. I want to go back to school to pursue a Master’s in Transpersonal Studies but gotta get well first. I’m highly frustrated that my work on getting well hasn’t been as productive as I want. I’m ready to be well NOW.

    “Distinction in sports at a young age is possible, notably between June 1972 and June 1973.”

    Ha! Yes, I was the fastest runner at my middle school. I was running a race, fell down, and broke my arm in 1973.

    “There could be luck associated with older sibling, which reflects well on you.”

    No older sibling that my mother is aware of; however, my father was in the U. S. Navy during the Korean war, so, dunno.

    “Rahu on the MEP of the 5th house with Sun as 5th lord in 8th house, suggests problems with…children or speculation…Due to your outgoing nature, you are likely to have been blessed with son(s).

    Yeah. Four of my children died before they were born. I’ve blogged about my miscarriages.

    “The aspect of Ketu in 11th house does not create much disturbance, although siblings and friends may have spiritual quality.”

    I was a Secular Carmelite (OCDS) for some years before voluntarily withdrawing.

    “The present transit station of the nodes in aspect to their natal placements suggests some situation has created significant strain during the summer months. This should diminish progressively from September 2010. Until June 2008 you were likely involved in foreign business dealings or higher/religious studies. From this time, some obstacles, possibly to do with conflict over inheritance, problems with debts or anxiety over medical condition, could be creating a disturbance in the family life. The weakness (old age) and bad placement of 5th lord Sun in 8th house indicates loss of or separation from father – although strong 9th lord Jupiter off-sets that, giving good paternal guidance in life.”

    Oh this is spot-on. My father died here at home from metastasized prostate cancer in May 2008. I was in the midst of the worst spiritual attack I’ve ever dealt with, left-handed shamans or wizards or sorcerers as you will (the coven is now in new lines of business but not due to anything on my part other than prayer. God sent me help.). In trying to keep my head above water I was in a frantic inculcation by my helpers to a side of the spiritual world that I never knew existed until literally, it hit me dead in the chest – energy manipulation. I am still not an energy manipulator and never plan to be one but I had to learn what it was. In a hurry. It’s all over now but the healing.

    I had been working handicapped for years but became completely unable to work and formally retired six weeks before my father died. My late father and I had issues but I’m grateful to say that more God-sent help has progressed resolution in the past 2 months. It wasn’t until I studied astrology that I understood his priceless gift of how to blend my Jupiter/Saturn conj. He was Saturn personified, Capricorn Sun and Moon. Learn to live with him and anyone could learn to thrive with Saturn placements. Thanks to him, I have “luck” with Saturn, you might say.

    “4th lord Moon in 7th house suggests mother lived abroad or that interests were focused on foreign countries or on foreign travel.”

    My parents eloped when my father was granted 2 week’s leave during the Korean War. He was stationed in Honolulu. In 3 days my mother went from living in a small town in Alabama to flying across the Pacific to Hawaii.

    “Strong 7th lord Venus in the 10th house suggests spouse has a prominent career or that you have foreign ties in career or are involved in the tourism industry. Sub-period of Ketu from November suggests a shift in focus from present situation. Better improvement is seen in Venus sub-period in November 2011.”

    Waiting…waiting…waiting for that fab foreigner man! 🙂

  18. @Parin Stormlaughter
    I stand uncorrected. You don’t get to rephrase my premise in a more technical and verbose way and claim that they are completely unrelated. To be simpler “things happening in the sky are correlated to seemingly unrelated things on earth” is to any rational persons mind, the very foundation of astrology as practiced by every astrologer. How, if I am wrong is that statement false on its face, not just lacking specifics?

  19. @Jaime D.

    Hi Jaime D

    listen I’m all for the diamond approach – and I like your Polaris programme as both a test case and as a concept – what, one wonders, next…..

    …..well, I would like to propose an offer – no-one on this blog, involved in this thread or any of the threads that by hook or by crook link in to this collection of posts, no-one knows me or my birth details – so ask Jamie to supply you with my contact e-mail, mail me in return and I will supply you with as many events from my life as you need to calculate my birth time using Polaris – this is genuine and above board

    At the final analysis I am not interested in proving or disproving the credibility of either side of this argument, but, I see here an opportunity to move the debate on significantly with some tangibility

    I cannot claim complete impartiality because I have the experiences and results which already prove the case to my own satisfaction anyway – also, this is not a strictly scientific approach as the general reader will have to take it on trust that I am genuine and honest in this – however, I strive in my endeavours for openmindedness simply because my own practice demands it of me (the hollow bone), because ‘one never knows’ and, I am heartened by the promise of your posts

    yay or nay

  20. JD – quick addendum to the above – for the sake of clarity/impartiality etc I am open to guidance on how this all might be followed thru

    – I do have some questions prior to, specifically around defining birth time, but, will await your thumbs up/down etc first

  21. @Parin Stormlaughter
    Hi Parin,
    One of the outstanding features of your chart concerns your 1st lord Mars and there the call on voice (singer), sports activities in 1972/73, own business and income, was convincingly affirmed. Sorry to hear about your 4 miscarriages. Your 5th lord Sun, ruling children and romance, is devoid of power in the 8th house of obstacles and endings. By itself it means that its indications never take birth. I thought your well placed Jupiter, which rules sons and husband, could grant you these, but was wrong. It is likely the 5th lord explains also the absence (or loss) of husband because it rules romance and joy in a relationship and Jupiter is closely afflicted by Rahu, which could have involved some trust issues. Absence of elder sibling suggest that the time reported is perhaps a few minutes earlier, as then the influence of Ketu on the 11th house is greater. Despite the good placement of Venus as 7th lord of spouse and foreign matters in the 10th house of career, the romance or communication could have been a weak spot in getting married or keeping the marriage going. The indications for the father are also linked to the Sun as a general indicator and Jupiter as the 9th lord, or the functional indicator. While I got the father right, I may have given too much weight to the indications of the Sun in the reading, such that the indications of children never took birth, as opposed to having them and then having problems with them. Well, the reading was done in a jiffy as time is scarce, but came out well where the indications in the chart are unambiguous. I rarely do readings for individuals, confining my attention to mundane (national) charts on my blog and SAMVA list. In this case I wanted to see how far I’d get and also as your chart looked interesting.

  22. Thor, I was very impressed. I thought you did a fine job. Everybody around here knows the story of my parents’ elopement but nobody has yet mentioned seeing it in my natal chart, for instance.

    George W., you’ve run out of arguments you know.

    Observing events occur together doesn’t establish cause and effect. You’re wrong to demand that astrology defend your incorrect assumption.

    Even in quantum physics, the mirror particle doesn’t take on characteristics until the observations of the first particle takes place – the two particles are not already mirrors before measurement, I mean.

    Another example: when smoking tobacco was discovered to be correlated to lung cancer, coffee drinking was considered to the primary damaging factor. There was a huge outcry that coffee drinking caused lung cancer. When the data was reanalyzed, the data miners discovered that smokers very frequently smoked a cigarette when having a cup of coffee. Accounting for that, the more likely culprit, tobacco, emerged.

    The discovery of Pluto did not contribute to the rise of the Nazi Party; however they did, in fact, occur close together. Careful observation of mankind’s worldly life showed a clear connection between the astrologer’s interpretation of Pluto and world and life events. That’s how astrology functions.

    So, yeah, not much more you say there dude.

    Let the straw man’s embers glow undisturbed.

  23. I may have to call it a day on this thread. I’m tired and my head hurts.

    Jason and George W have been discovered and my head hurts; therefore, they are the direct and indisputable cause of Skeptical Head Pain Syndrome.

    I have no idea how to build an ephemeris for them. That would be a huge ton o’fun though wouldn’t it? B)

  24. Just so I can get a lay of the land, is there any value at this juncture of actually doing that cross-posting, as I promised Jamie, and as was my original intent? You remember, the argument that so far pretty well everyone has either dismissed without evidence or told me was based on incorrect assumptions without providing a proper framework that actually negates my claims?

  25. @Marina

    “I am not a creationist Jason. As you can see we have quite a few Christian regulars on our blog, despite us writing very Christian-critical posts here. We still get along. But we are probably closer to you in our Agnosticism.
    At the same time we are mystics I guess, while science is your God. There is no getting away from belief systems whichever way you turn.”

    HO to that Marina – sounds like a good departure point

  26. Jamie and Marina

    A debate on natural law, full on.

    The law of Continuity, Its the one.

    Not quite sure what it is, but its the only one that tests both the spitual and physical.

    One day I want a birth chart done.
    Thanks, enjoy your blog emensely.
    even though its beyond me.

  27. Hi Jason,

    I think it would be a bit “after a fashion now” wouldn’t it? I think Jamie and I have learn a lot from this. We are relatively new to the Blogsphere, you rightly said we need to develop a thick skin from the criticism we will get by putting ourselves out there.
    But as I said before. This is our livelihood and shop front, your blog is not. We need to clean the eggs off our glass,from time to time, so as not to distract from our work. For you the eggs are part of your work.
    I would’ve liked to see your chart purely for the synastry with Jamie. It would’ve just been interesting to know what you represented for HIM!
    But I think this is worth repeating. Thanks LB! This says it all for me.

    LB :

    Those of us with firsthand experience know that someone’s denouncement of astrology doesn’t make astrology any less valid. Nor does someone’s disbelief in God (or a divine source) make them any less loved by that source, or any less deserving of respect. As a Christian who also studies astrology, I believe God gave Jason free will to decide to believe or not, as he chooses. Jason shouldn’t have to justify his skepticism to us any more than any of us should have to justify our beliefs to him.

    Whether or not we agree with Jason on various issues, his blog is devoted to providing a safe environment for atheists and other ‘non-believers’ to express themselves, so it comes as no big surprise he would not respect the work of astrologers – Jamie included. Just as astrologers have been injured by the insults of skeptics, I suspect many non-believers have been deeply wounded by some very real hypocrisies as others try to discount their worthiness . . . which in turn leads to a desire to discount those who believe. It becomes a pointlessly vicious cycle of exclusion without resolution.

    As someone who has engaged in an internet exchange from time to time, I understand the value in occasionally setting the record straight. And I can understand the impulse that led Jamie to defend his position. But sometimes there just isn’t enough common ground to make the discussion worth continuing – far better to let it go and wish each other well.

    That’s all I wanted to say; I don’t plan on debating anyone.

    I am not a creationist Jason. As you can see we have quite a few Christian regulars on our blog, despite us writing very Christian-critical posts here. We still get along. But we are probably closer to you in our Agnosticism.
    At the same time we are mystics I guess, while science is your God. There is no getting away from belief systems whichever way you turn.

  28. At the same time we are mystics I guess, while science is your God. There is no getting away from belief systems whichever way you turn.

    Marina, while I strongly disagree with that insofar as if I believe in anything, it is that evidence is paramount, I won’t draw this out any longer than necessary. I agree with Rob (again) — this is a good departure point. We’ve agreed to disagree and we’ll disengage.

    Please understand that through all this, I’ve never meant you as persons any harm. Good luck to you both.

  29. I am glad that I was able to take part in this exchange, even if I feel like I’m walking away sorely lacking the information I was hoping for.
    In many ways I wish that this thread and the one over at Jason’s site had not descended into character assassinations and petty quibbling over minutiae.
    At the risk of sounding passive-aggressive -I have always been under the impression that astrology tries to draw causal correlations between the movement of celestial bodies and events in peoples lives. I have been corrected in this belief.
    I am somewhat heartened to learn that astrologers do not believe this true. This was my major difficulty with astrology. As near I can tell from Parin’s description, a more fair description is that astrology takes events that have happened already and searches the heavens to look for patterns that may or may not have played some part in the event.
    I am glad we can depart agreeing on the premise that celestial movements have no effect on seemingly unrelated events in our daily lives.
    As Marina, Rob, and Jason have said, now is a good time to call the exchange a wash.
    I would like to make the honest offer that if any of you want to take the time to clarify astrology and have a reasonable discussion (“school me”, so to speak) I will not turn you away. I will listen, ask questions, likely disagree, but remain open to your ideas.
    As Jason has said, I offer no ill will toward any of you, I wish Jamie and Marina all the best.

  30. I approach Astrology as an art in that I use it to “paint” a picture of a person, place or time. Some say that Astrology mirrors rather than predicts. Astrological forecasting is somewhat like meteorological forecasting- they look at jet streams and air currents and put it all together to give you their interpretation of the most likely outcome. Sometimes they’re wrong. They are as much of an artist as we are. As astrologers, we look at planets, stars, moons, (and a lot of astrologers use the transneptunian objects as well) etc. and notice unfolding patterns, and then give our interpretation. I think that eventually, with the study of fractals and chaos theory, scientists will be able to conclude that Astrology can be explained through the paradigms of those scientific standards. We don’t move around in space, we’re part of it. Everything has its own energy, and makes more of a difference than you think it does.

  31. @George W.
    Hello George W. I am of the view that astrology should be approached like any other scientific inquiry, even if it is difficult to control for a large host of factors, as is done in most scientific experiments. In my view, the problem with much of astroloy today is that it is based on a historical mistake in its axiomatic principles. cosmologer.blogspot.com/2010/07/ptolemys-mistake-and-origin-of-western.html
    As a result, many astrologers have given up on prediction and look for patterns after the fact. Please be advised: that is not real astrology. The simple reason is that if astrology can’t predict, it also cannot explain.
    Another article of potential interest is “What is Astrology?” from December 2007. Best regards, Thor

  32. @Thor
    Great article. Thanks for posting the link. I always thought Ptolemy was a bit suspect. But funny how ingrained he is into western astrology, to the point of the adherance to Ptolemic aspects. Because of him the quincunx is often played down, but I’m increasingly finding this aspect as V strongly felt as certainly a sextile if not more so. Which is why we include them in our aspects research.
    I did look into Western Sidereal astrology for a while and I do believe it is far more true to the signs working that way. I have noticed people born at the end of signs (ie so that they have the same sidereal as western sunsign) ARE actually very typical of their sun. Jamie is a great example of a Virgo!

  33. @Marina
    Thank you for the kind feedback. The SA vedic aspects are somewhat different from western aspects. All planets cast conjunction and opposition aspects. In addtion to this, Jupiter, Rahu and Ketu also cast the trine aspect; Mars also casts a forward square and a forward quinquinx aspect and Saturn casts a forward sextile and a backward square. (for clarity: Sun, Moon, Mercury and Venus only cast conj. & opp.). Moreover, these aspects come with an orb of 5° with the most influence when exact.
    Interestingly, in Vedic, while the Sun and the sign Leo are held in high esteem, the key to the reading revolves around the rising sign.

  34. @Thor
    That article on Ptolemy is an excellent read. You have pin pointed the critical problem with Hellenistic or Horoscopic astrology – ignorance of precession. Deborah Houldings seems to be saying in Heavenly Imprints that it was just too threatening to their system to acknowledge it.

    “Although Hipparchus (c. 190-120 BC), credited with discovering the precession of the equinoxes, provided indisputable evidence of the phenomenom during the process of correcting earlier star charts, many of his contemporaries dismissed his findings, reluctant to relinquish their traditional beliefs. Hence, even as late as 77 AD, we find the Roman Historian Pliny ignoring his discoveries, writing in his Natural History that the Sun ‘changes its course’ at the 8th degree of Aries, in complete disregard to Hipparchus’s work.” Reply

  • @Jamie
    Hi Jamie, I’m afraid Houlding’s article, while informative on some points, is not helpful when it comes to sorting out the truth on the matter. I select a few statements and offer my comments.

    DH: “…over several centuries it will be noticed that the backdrop of stars that once lay behind the crossing point is moving westwards.“

    Thor: Exactly, and to keep the zodiac fixed in place, the early astrologers corrected for the precession with the “ayanamsa“ adjustment. Some later Greek and Roman astrologers, however, did not make the adjustment.

    DH: “…it was natural for astrologers to seek to place its starting point – philosophically at least – in alignment with the Vernal Equinox.“

    Thor: This is a convenient after the fact explanation. DH suggests Ptolemy and his acolytes made an adjustment to keep the zodiac focused on the VE. No such thing. They made no adjustment. It was the other way around.

    DH: “The people of ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia were not using the tropical zodiac (it hadn’t been invented yet), and so they had no need to establish a fixed reference point from which it could commence.“

    Thor: This is just plain wrong. The sidereal zodiac was purposefully kept fixed in alignment to the galactic background represented by the fixed stars. Hence, the knowledge of the precession was well known long before the Greco-Roman age. The explanation by Houlding is based on the confusion of astrologers like Ptolemy. In actual fact, the western astrologers forgot or through a misunderstanding dropped the adjustment.

    DH: “Although Hipparchus (c. 190-120 BC), credited with discovering the precession of the equinoxes, provided indisputable evidence of the phenomenom during the process of correcting earlier star charts, many of his contemporaries dismissed his findings, reluctant to relinquish their traditional beliefs.“

    Thor: Around the time of Hipparchus, the sideral and tropical zodiacs would have been in alignment. Perhaps he noticed the movement of one zodiac from the other, but he didn’t discover the precession, which was known earlier, as mentioned by DH in the following statement.

    DH: “Classical historians generally had a way of exaggerating the antiquity of their belief systems and since the zodiac had been in existence for several hundreds of years, they were quick to view it as an essential and immutable tool that ran back through the mists of time. Within these principles Aries was commemorated as the sign of spring – it had been for thousands of years.“

    Thor: Likely the astrologers view on the ancient origin of the sideral zodiac was right. Just because Greek literal sources of horoscopic astrology don´t go further back than to the Hellenic age, doesn´t mean it didn’t exist before then. The non-horoscopic astrology of the Jyotisha Vedanga goes back much further. Finally, the sidereal (precession corrected) zodiac still has the sun passing into the sign Pisces in mid March as it did in Caesars time around 2000 years ago – called the Ides of Mars. Over time, using the tropical (uncorrected) zodiac, the Sun now enters Pisces around 19 February each year. Some centuries from now, the Sun will enter Pisces around 15 February – with the tropical zodiac thus having shifted a whole sign.

    DH: The ‘Tropical Zodiac’ begins at the first degree of Aries, and the first degree of Aries is determined by the position of the Vernal Equinox. The two are bonded together. As the Vernal Equinox winds slowly westwards so do all the hypothetical signs of the zodiac, tying them to the relationship of the Sun and the Earth, and maintaining the symbolism of the seasons.

    Thor: We owe this confusion to link the zodiac to the Vernal Equinox to the astronomer/astrologer Ptolemy, whom DH counts among the “Great”s. Evidently, his philosophic motive to link the starting point of Aries to the Vernal Equinox was to preserve the “moisture of the season“.

    DH: “That the zodiac sign of Aries overlays the stars of the constellation Pisces is irrelevant; the imaginary, symbolic zodiac is now distinct from the stars and supersedes them as a point of astronomical and astrological reference.“

    Thor: Hello? The correspondence with the original fixed stars is irrelevant? The symbolic zodiac is imaginary? I thought it was the other way around! 🙂

    Hope this helps.

  • @Thor
    Deborah Houldings article seems to be full of paradoxes. How can one write about the history and “rich mythology” of the CONSTELLATIONS of Aries and Taurus and then say it becomes symbolic of the seasons once it’s evident that precession has moved things on? So Christianity had something to do with the bringing in of the tropical zodiac, no surprise there then.. It’s kinda obvious why the tropicalists “ignored” precession.
    Deborah says:

    “But it was during the commencement of the Christian Era that precession was shifting the vernal equinox, the herald of spring, out of Aries and into Pisces, where it has remained since. What were astrologers to do? Rewrite the so-called immutable testimony of the stars and proclaim Pisces as the new starting point? The meanings of all of the signs were heavily dependent upon seasonal activities and calendrical events; this would have meant a complete re-evaluation of astrological philosophy at the very period it had come to the height of its power in the western world.” and
    “The date given for the transition between the unequal constellations of Aries and Pisces is the year 29 AD, some say 0 AD, but certainly accepted as overlapping with the reputed life span of Christ.” Deborah Holding

    I think this pretty amazing symbolic synchro. Actually the end of her article is very interesting in that it talks about Astrology’s relationship to Christianity which is really what the article is about. The transition from the age of the Ram (Aries) and pagan horned Gods to (Pisces) “Fisher of Men” Jesus.

    So she is also saying the meaning of the zodiac signs was foremost taken from the seasons. But then goes into the ancient past to explain the origins of Aries and Taurus. At the time the tropical zodiac was established, the zodiac signs were surely based on empirical study of observation of the effects of the planets being in certain constellations. I’m pretty sure the seasonal interps came later as a RESULT of the new system surely? I wager this is how Astrology lost its predictive edge and has now become mostly “Psychological” in the west. I think its simply become less accurate and woolly due to the signs overlapping and diluting each other.

    Dane Rudhyar on being asked about precession said the signs should be read as moving like the planets so you get Aquarius being in Capricorn right now. Hmmmmm all very blurry and Neptunian to me. But then Rudhyar says Neptune (not Uranus) rules astrology so he would..

  • @Thor

    Thanks for that analysis of Houldings work. This is such an important topic I want to write a blog article specifically about the zodiacs and precession now. I’m planning to quote from your article if that’s OK.

    • Astrology was used by the three wise men to locate the birthplace of Jesus Christ. The wise men astrologers brought gifts to the baby Jesus. A blessed event. Those who attack, criticize others, were critcized, attacked, as children so they act out their own unresolved childhood issues on others. IGNORE, and rebuke, ie., say get lost, to those who are trying to act out their erring unresolved issues. People who attack others must resolve their own unresolved childhood issues on their own in private, usually with a qualified therapist. Do not feed the trolls can also be stated as ‘Do not answer a fool unto his folly lest you become like a fool’ and ‘Cast not yea pearls before swine lest the swine will trample you underfoot’ and ‘Do not give what is holy to dogs, the profane.’ Jesus said to the adversary, Get lost, and that is what we say to critics, Get lost, go away, get out of here. And remember: It is none of your business what other people think of you.

  • @Jamie
    Hi Jamie, that should be interesting. You are welcome to quote from my blog articles. Please note that some of the biographical or historical material is from the Wikipedia sources, with my interpretation and context. The value added of the blog articles (I hope) is to develop a truer understanding of the evolution of astrology in order to guide modern astrologers towards the axiomatic foundations that give more accurate results. That, I think, is essential if we are to reclaim astrology’s rightful place among the branches of higher learning in the West. Finally, as I am not an expert on ancient Indian astronomy, including the ancient precession adjustment, I draw your attention to the following information
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_precession_(astronomy)#Indian_views
    in case that is of interest. Wikipedia also has a useful entry on the ‘Ayanamsa’ correction, with a discussion of ancient views, as well as a cursory entry on ‘Sidereal Astrology’.

  • @Marina
    Hi Marina, I agree. That said, it is very human and understandable to seek to put a spin on things that justifies ones praxis. I think I have become reasonably objective in my approach as I have studied all major forms of astrology, gaining a personal experience of their strenghts and weaknesses. For instance, I began as a boy with western astrology in the early 1970s and found that, indeed there was something there. I especially liked the British mundane astrologers of the 1940s-1960s. However, I found that Western was almost useless for making consistent predictions. I dropped it after I found traditional hindu horoscopic and other astrology in the mid 1980s, initially based on Western interpretations but later the English translation of the ancient works. I liked the ascendant focus of vedic a lot, however, while I didn’t realise it at the time, I still hadn’t come across a consistent horoscopic approach. Moreover, as the modern branch of vedic is also full of contradictions and confusions, I dropped it for a few years in the mid 1990s. I needed some distance from all the different techniques and lack of cohesion. By chance, in 1998, I discoverd SA, whose ‘back to basics’ common sense and simplified approach with a singular focus on predictive/interpretive results pulled me in again. That’s when horoscopic astrology truly began to make sense to me. I’ve been working with it with fine results since. Applying basic horoscopic astrology, both in terms of the horoscopes of individuals and nations, and reading on the history of astrology gradually opened my eyes to the likely true historical development, which I now try to share – but also get feedback on. Importantly, we live and we learn – and that makes life vibrant and meaningful.

  • Astrology is no more and no less a symbolic language we may find useful in assigning meaning to objects and events in our world. Mathematicians, newtonian and quantum physicists, psychologists, egyptologists, anthropologists, etc., are ALL engaged in using their own, idiosyncratic symbol systems to describe the world around us. Even code inside an IT system is made up of a bunch of 0’s and 1’s which, in their different combinations, are translated to mean something in our illusion of consensual reality. All of it is metaphor.

    No one way is any better nor more valid than any other. The STRAWMAN itself is just a symbolic representation of an individual within the cyber-corporate world of finance.

    There are large variables among the individuals wielding the tools of interpretation in all of these disciplines. There are Einsteins and PeeWee Hermans in every single one of them.

    It’s very simple, pick the discipline (or combination of them) that works for you and gives you a sense of understanding, meaning and belonging in your world. And find contentment in that.

    Destruction of the other is not necessary to our survival or sense of selfhood (well, western civilization has been taught that it is and that’s what we as a culture need to work on at a core level). If we wipe out everything on the face of the map we don’t like, well, it’s going to be pretty boring.

    • I wholeheartedly agree. Looking at disciplines as symbols of signs, patterns and relations is the only authentic way to assess their nature, and a critique (such as from a philosophy of science perspective) that is waged on the pure basis of pattern will strengthen any one of them, no matter how much their mutually hostile “social stink” places them at war.

      • ah, *systems* of signs, patterns, and relations is what I meant to say. 🙂

  • @sistertongue
    Don’t worry. The intention is not to “destroy Western astrology.” It cannot be done, it is too much a part of the intellectual history of the West up to the present. That said, hopefully this information will be of use to those interested in improving their PREDICTIVE ABILITY.

  • Any Canuck who tries to debunk
    Jamie and Marina Funk…is a punk.
    And probably drunk as a skunk,
    with junk in his trunk, and needs his head shrunk.
    Matter of fact, Imma call this Canuck a Canunck!
    lolsss

  • A special thankyou to Robert Currey for going into bat for the Astrology 11 against the skeptics on Jason’s website. He has hit a few sixes and still not out!

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