Astrology Skeptics

Salem Witch Trial

Salem Witch Trial

Most astrologers will have to deal with harassment from skeptics in their lives. If skeptics or trolls contaminate an astrologers website it is not pleasant but easily fixed, just delete and ban them.

What is more unpleasant and not so easy to deal with is skeptics slandering and ridiculing the work of an astrologer on their own website. We have less control over this situation. Should we react or let the public slander go unchallenged?

Historically astrologers have just copped the punishment. Most of the Celtic Druids were slaughtered on the Isle of Angelsey in AD 60. The Roman Catholic Inquisitions and witch hunts by other institutionalized lynch mobs put countless astrologers in prison or led to their torture and often death

. It’s not surprising given the 2000 years of persecution that astrologers tend to be a little defensive when faced with personal attacks from skeptics these days.

Astrology is no longer a heresy punishable by death. We are free to study our craft and If we chose we can make it our profession and try to make a living from it. In much the same way as a naturopath is free to study and make a profession out of herbal medicine. If a naturopath has a website as a shopfront to share information and solicit business, they would not take kindly to skeptics defaming their reputation on other websites, in a public forum.

In the last few days our website has been defamed and ridiculed by some skeptics. They linked to my blog about the oil spill so I became aware of it via the ping-back. I commented on that blog saying it would have been more polite for them to have commented on my blog. I debated with them for a while and invited them to comment on something specific about my work, on my blog, instead of trying to disprove astrology in general.

Should I have ignored the slanderous blog? Deepwater Horizon foretold by astrology!!! (Well, post-told). Well I did feed the trolls which has led to If it smells like Funk, it must be astrology and People braver than I with choice quotes like “astrology is so obviously ridiculous that I don’t think I’d have the patience to deal with the peddlers of such trash”, “obvious fakery” and “making shit up and dressing it up as reality”.

True it would not have escalated if I had not reacted. They are not burning me at the stake, but it is a psychological attack and it is also an attack on how I make my living. I guess that is why I reacted, I don’t want to lay down an take the insults. Astrology is a legitimate profession and we should be proud of our craft and our history, many thousands of years as an integral part of society in all cultures. Something strong inside me doesn’t want to let the skeptics get away with continuing the persecution.

That original attack on my oil spill was posted less than one day after the recent solar eclipse which fell right on my Descendant, ruler of one-to-one relationships which included close allies such as the partner, and also open enemies. Fortunately my Descendant is sextile Jupiter by just 6 minutes. The solar eclipse was sextile Mars in the sky, and Mars was conjunct my Jupiter. That explains why I went wanted to fight.

104 thoughts on “Astrology Skeptics

  1. I understand where you come and I appreciate your views and insights. I also feel that at this time of great shifting and challenges… it brings out the greatest sense of who you really are vs what you do. So who are you? are you astrology or is astrology something that you do so beautifully, in my view?
    Think about this before engaging in the negative energies of the skeptics. They are only helping you grow into the better aspect of you.
    I am a psychic/ intuitive life coach and have had many challenges in just saying what I do, though I am intuitive and won’t back down to that true innate essence of Self. I am who I am…

  2. Recently I got tangled in an argument about the oppression of women with a “man rules” sort of guy. After a few exchanges, I realized the conversation was going to escalate and the fellow was very invested in his opinion- so I did an Aikido move and just send. ” I send you love and good fortune. Best.” His defenses suddenly dropped and he said thanks you and I let the conversation go even though, I myself, had plenty of argument left in me.

    Another example is when I was studying at Barbara Brennan’s School of Healing and it was family visiting day. A family member asked how she dealt with skeptics. She said she had too much work to do and her work was not to convince skeptics. Skeptics could think whatever they wanted.

    Obviously a lot of people know nothing about astrology and they have an investment in being a “pain in the ass” – for whatever reason. Let them be and keep doing your work.

    Today there are so many great astrologers and the body of work has grown strong. Keep doing the work. Don’t waste your breath on convincing people. It’s like refusing to do healing with someone who doesn’t want healing or who just wants to see a parlor trick so they can throw stones for any reason. Don’t waste your time. Focus on your work and the open audience.

  3. As both Jenn and Margaret pointed out, I absolutely would have let the matter drop with nary a single mention of your names (and you’ll note, the original article sneering at the idea of using astrology to “predict”, after the fact, why Deepwater Horizon exploded, didn’t contain the name Jamie Funk anywhere on it until Jamie posted). I also didn’t think there was much to debate about — we have a difference of opinion, in that I believe astrology is bunkum, he believes it has value. It was his personal pride and conflating my sneering at astrology with sneering at his personal skills at it, that led to the escalation.

    I’m not persecuting, I have no intention of carrying out an inquisition, and I’m certainly not hunting for heretics as I don’t personally hold to ANY dogma, much less a dogmatic belief in science without evidence. I mean, if you want to carry out the argument, I work well in either the mode where we discuss astrology, or we throw personal insults at each other (e.g. when Jamie called me a coward), so if you must cast me as an inquisitor rather than a warm and genuine human being with a difference of opinion, then do what you must to muster the courage to fight.

    That said, after I post one last pointer to this thread and a cross-post of this comment, I have every intention of letting the matter drop, if you have no intentions of addressing my arguments in lousycanuck.ca/?p=3898

    (That post, by the by, was written for this blog first, and cross-posted at my blog in case something untoward happened to it, like getting lost in a spam filter or getting reduced to merely a link. Cross-posting is not merely cut-and-pasting, but writing something intended to be posted in two places simultaneously.)

    Just say “astrology must be taken on faith” and we part ways. You have my word.

  4. Jenn :

    So who are you? are you astrology or is astrology something that you do so beautifully, in my view?
    Think about this before engaging in the negative energies of the skeptics. They are only helping you grow into the better aspect of you

    Great advice Jenn. This has been a great learning experience for me and I have been forced to think about who I am and what I do. It has clarified things for me. I definitely feel the growth you mentioned.

  5. Margaret Motheral : Don’t waste your time. Focus on your work and the open audience.

    I know you are right on this Margaret, and Marina has been telling me the same thing. I felt I had to engage on this occasion because I initially ignored it and tried doing some work but could not focus. There was a couple of projects I was working on but couldn’t think clearly enough to put a blog out because of the nagging irritation I felt.

    Looking at the aspects that solar eclipse made to my chart I felt I needed to deal with the attack to work the energy out inside me. Previous eclipses on my DC have manifested as confrontations with open enemies, so I thought I may as well live this one out and experience it fully. It can only be good for me and like Jenn said, it will help me grow.

  6. Jason Thibeault :

    As both Jenn and Margaret pointed out, I absolutely would have let the matter drop with nary a single mention of your names (and you’ll note, the original article sneering at the idea of using astrology to “predict”, after the fact, why Deepwater Horizon exploded, didn’t contain the name Jamie Funk anywhere on it until Jamie posted).

    So you would have let the matter drop if I had not commented? You ridicule someone’s work and are happy to leave it at that if they don’t respond. However if they do respond and attempt to defend their work, you keep attacking them and geting more personal, posting more defamatory blogs. Wow.

    Why are you still saying I used astrology to predict after the fact? That oil spill blog was an astrological analysis of an event. I didn’t say “that’s how you would predict it”. It was an attempt to explain what happened using astrology. We learn by studying events like this.

  7. Jason Thibeault I’m not persecuting, I have no intention of carrying out an inquisition…

    You also said: “The fact that you make money off of this blog is gravy — so long as you peddle bullshit and make money off it, I’m happy to play critic, as in a properly functioning capitalist society, the critic of a product has a protected role.” lousycanuck.ca/?p=3898

    It seems you enjoy your self appointed role as a “protected” critic.

  8. Jason Thibeault :

    Jamie called me a coward

    Yes I did call you a coward.

    You wrote: “I’ll be cross-posting it as a comment in your Deepwater Horizon thread since you’ve invited me to do so, and we’ll see what kind of “debate” I get there.” lousycanuck.ca/?p=3895 Deepwater Horizon foretold by astrology!!! (Well, post-told)

    I did ask you three times to comment on my article which you initially criticized, but instead you pasted you blog article as a comment on three of Marina’s unrelated articles.

    I do take back my coward comment now as you have come here to debate.

  9. Jason Thibeault, I read your article. I did not read the 184 comments.

    I do think your preach was directed at your choir and your sponsors.

    You cannot possibly believe you’ll change anyone’s mind about astrology who has been helped by chart analysis, can you? You cannot possibly imagine that your self-indulgent article will be taken scientifically seriously by anyone either, do you? I mean, really?

    Your article was an Age-of-Reason rant against what for you is part of the Unknown. Age of Reason science goes along the lines of, “if it doesn’t make sense and can’t be explained, it can’t possibly be right”.

    Science is not based on fact and you said so in many more words in your article. Science is based on repeatability through the application of the Scientific Method. Validity is established when results can be repeated, not when they can be explained.

    Astrology is and has been popular for several thousand years for no other reason than repeatability. Repeatability is why overwhelmingly, what’s called “precessed” charts based on actual observed positions of the planets, are rarely used by anyone. Precessed astrology isn’t consistently repeatable. Established ephemeral astrological work is repeatable and has been for several thousand years.

    And just because I love sarcastic irony and also happen to be a devout Catholic, I’m going to pray for you. You’re welcome.

    And I will continue to study science and astrology, and practice my religion and will defend them all. You, sir, I will neither read nor analyze again. You fall into none of those categories. You have fallen on your face, in my opinion.

  10. Jason, I find you disingenuous.

    And neither your response to me nor your article ginned up anything setting “all astrology is based on faith” as a testable hypothesis.

    You can’t explain astrology nor did you refute it. You merely criticized it. In fact, you can do neither one. I doubt Isaac Newton could have either. He’s not on record as dismissing astrology. His is an example you could learn from.

    It seems to me you’ve become bored playing with your walking fish.

  11. I am a regular reader over at Jason’s blog. I can attest to the fact that if you had not commented on his post, I would have been more than happy to just leave it at that. I may have thought “Wow, those astrologers are crazy folks”, but I would not have cared one way or the other to investigate further.
    To imply that you are a victim here is fallacious. To imply that Jason has been hurtling personal insults at you is fallacious. There was a point when the language began to get personal, and that was when a certain someone referred to us as “sniggering academic wankers”. I’ll leave it to you to “predict” who that was.
    I have said that I don’t doubt that you are a fantastic father, a loving spouse, and likely an all around nice bloke. I disagree that astrology has any value in predicting events in people’s lives. I think that the service you offer your clients, although solicited by them and consented to, is nothing more than entertainment, a parlour game of little value; I don’t like it because those people believe that what you are doing is valuable and of greater worth than simple entertainment. I understand that the vague advice you offer your clients is mostly harmless, maybe even good and useful. It’s the premise under which you offer it that I take issue with. I would take the same stance with psychics and tarot readers. I would also mention that I believe homeopathy to be bunk as well, and in its case, I am more forcefully opposed because of the danger to client’s health.

    The problem with explaining things through astrology after the fact is that it gives the impression to gullible shills that astrology has predictive power, an assumption that is wrong on its face. Things that occur thousands or millions of miles away have no bearing on any random occurrences here on earth. That is a fact. Until you or someone else man up and prove otherwise, it will remain a fact. You were asked to back up your claims that astrology is not a load of hooey and you have answered with nothing more than insults.
    I have a method of my own that holds some predictive power. Let’s call it George’s Law. It states that when someone makes extraordinary claims, then refuses to back them up with facts and instead attacks those with dissenting opinions- that person will draw increasing negative attention on the internet at a rate directly proportional to the crap that spews from his mouth. Ask <a href="I am a regular reader over at Jason's blog. I can attest to the fact that if you had not commented on his post, I would have been more than happy to just leave it at that. I may have thought "Wow, those astrologers are crazy folks", but I would not have cared one way or the other to investigate further.
    To imply that you are a victim here is fallacious. To imply that Jason has been hurtling personal insults at you is fallacious. There was a point when the language began to get personal, and that was when a certain someone referred to us as “sniggering academic wankers”. I’ll leave it to you to “predict” who that was.
    I have said that I don’t doubt that you are a fantastic father, a loving spouse, and likely an all around nice bloke. I disagree that astrology has any value in predicting events in people’s lives. I think that the service you offer your clients, although solicited by them and consented to, is nothing more than entertainment, a parlour game of little value; I don’t like it because those people believe that what you are doing is valuable and of greater worth than simple entertainment. I understand that the vague advice you offer your clients is mostly harmless, maybe even good and useful. It’s the premise under which you offer it that I take issue with. I would take the same stance with psychics and tarot readers. I would also mention that I believe homeopathy to be bunk as well, and in its case, I am more forcefully opposed because of the danger to client’s health.

    The problem with explaining things through astrology after the fact is that it gives the impression to gullible shills that astrology has predictive power, an assumption that is wrong on its face. Things that occur thousands or millions of miles away have no bearing on any random occurrences here on earth. That is a fact. Until you or someone else man up and prove otherwise, it will remain a fact. You were asked to back up your claims that astrology is not a load of hooey and you have answered with nothing more than insults.
    I have a method of my own that holds some predictive power. Let’s call it George’s Law. It states that when someone makes extraordinary claims, then refuses to back them up with facts and instead attacks those with dissenting opinions- that person will draw increasing negative attention on the internet at a rate directly proportional to the crap that spews from his mouth. Ask joecienkowskilies.wordpress.com/2010/07/10/joe-cienkowski-is-a-filthy-liar/

  12. Oh. I guess I DID go back on my word, since I cross-posted it in a new thread which was getting comments. However, you do realize that “cross-posting” means “posting in two places at the same time”, right? I did exactly that. I just didn’t do it where I said I would. If you’d like, I could copy-and-paste the entire comment (which, as I said, was written as a comment then put on my blog), into that DH thread, as I had originally promised. Would it stay intact, or would you reduce it to a link again?

    As for your post-dictions, while one of your commenters has said over at my place that astrology isn’t used to make predictions, I thought that’s what a natal chart was all about — figuring out what COULD happen, not what DID happen. Since we already know what DID happen. Correct me if I’m wrong, but do your readers not believe that astrology can be used predictively, and do they not expect you to perform readings to exactly that end?

  13. As for being a critic, one doesn’t accuse amazon.com reviewers of defamation, does one?

  14. Uhm, Joe, I have a question: Did your comments show up in your response twice to purposely make your response longer or was it an accident?

    What both you and Jason have done is set up a straw man about astrology and demand that an astrologer defend the straw man. Your and Jason’s assertions about astrology, in a general sense, are incorrect and obviously set out as bait. Why on earth would you expect anyone to bite? It’s like picking out an incorrect practice of Christianity like worship of the Blessed Virgin Mary and then demanding that a Christian defend it. If anyone does worship the Blessed Virgin Mary, to continue the example, it’s not the correct practice of Christianity; hence, it would be sacrilegious to condemn someone you perceived as conducting such worship as not being in a state of grace.

    Nobody in his or her right mind would go there. Nor demand that an astrologer defend wrong assumptions of yours and Jason’s about astrology.

    Your assertion that “things that occur thousands or millions of miles away have no bearing on any random occurrences here on earth” is a nonsensical statement in the context of discussing both astrology and science. Quantum physics studies random particles and astrology is repeatable.

    Just give it up, man. Study astrology so you can intelligently discuss it or risk being deemed a Richard Dawkins who, when told he wasn’t theologically qualified to condemn Christianity, replied, “Do you have to read up on leprechology before disbelieving in leprechauns?”

  15. jason thibeault… i think you’re a fool.. you can think what you want.

  16. For the record, I have no sponsors. I make not a dime off my website. Not even Google Ads. I even pay for my hosting.

    Again, I’m not interested in this “science can’t prove astrology”, because I feel that science has disproven it. For the reasons outlined in my post. It is based on objective observation of facts, so it is indeed based on facts. I’m really only interested in debate on those points outlined in my post. Not in how popular astrology has been, how good of an astrologer Jamie Funk happens to be, how accurate your hits have been anecdotally, or any other vague and unfalsifiable claims about astrology’s functionality.

    If you want to believe astrology works, go right ahead, be my guest. Just admit it’s all based on faith. I mean, I have no argument whatsoever against faith. That’s my weak spot, even! Highlighted, with a bulls-eye.

  17. hello

    Quite a long time after the battle, it seems… On the bright side, this kind of attack makes you stronger (in your belief, on your line); and by the way, it shows that your work is great: it put enough pressure on them to react… you didn’t choose this but…
    Just don’t lose your sense of humour,’cause it’s our best weapon against skeptical trols (smile)

  18. Jason Thibeault :As for your post-dictions, while one of your commenters has said over at my place that astrology isn’t used to make predictions, I thought that’s what a natal chart was all about — figuring out what COULD happen, not what DID happen. Since we already know what DID happen. Correct me if I’m wrong, but do your readers not believe that astrology can be used predictively, and do they not expect you to perform readings to exactly that end?

    Some people may use charts for predictions; some don’t. Astrology isn’t all about predicting what will or won’t happen. Many people study their own natal charts to see how their personality traits play out. Likewise, many also study and compare charts of others in the same way. Those looking into what may happen (predicting) may use transits, returns, solar arcs, progressions, etc. as a tool. To say a natal chart is used to make predictions is just not correct. While I do believe astrology can be used in predictions, I do NOT expect Jaimie and Marina to do so. Predictive readings, by the way, could be looked at as being horary readings.

  19. Jamie, if you’re doing the work you love and the work you are destined to do, you don’t have the time to argue with people who have no concept of the art. I’ve tried to do that and all I ever ended up with was a headache. One cannot change the mind of another without first engaging the mind through personal experiences. I was a skeptic 30 years ago until someone looked at my chart and went “back” in my life to describe experiences I’d already had.

    This is always how I start my readings, to get my client’s mind engaged through obvious truth. I don’t do the future because I don’t think there’s any future in it. We all have free choice to move our lives in one way or another. Go back, my son, and use your key to open the past for this gentleman. Nuff said…

  20. Denouncing something without a fair and open discussion is neither helpful or enlightened. The famed philosopher of science, Paul Feyerabend, proposed to scientists who were sceptical of astrology to test it before arriving at a conclusion (“The Strange Case of Astrology” – fisa.altervista.org/cialtrones.pdf).

    For astrology to be scientifically verifiable astrologers need to make repeat accurate predictions. You are welcome to examine the the many predictions for the USA based on ancient vedic astrology reading of the planetary periods and transits in the SAMVA USA chart (Perpetual Union). Here are some major accurate predictions:
    cosmologer.blogspot.com/2010/05/crisis-in-summer-of-2010.html
    cosmologer.blogspot.com/2008/09/crisis-in-fall.html

  21. Hi Jamie, in spanish we said “Ladran Sancho señal que cabalgamos..” from Don Quijote de la Mancha, M Cervantes, something like ..”they are barking (the dogs) it´s means we are riding”, i agree, don´t waste your time, i like your work because it allow me to learn a lot about astro and how it´s work even thought not always our political views are similar.
    Mr George W: what a lot of empy words i get boring trying to understand them! Sorry may be i´m a spanish native! 🙂

  22. I have been a involved in debates over many years, mostly in co-operative rather than competative arenas and, believe me, on-line debating leaves a LOT to be desired – it is however, in my humble opinion, worth trying to set the record straight, even at the risk of prelonging the argument and invoking boredom (THAT will happen soon enough anyway)
    Why is it worth it?…….for the sake of balance, grounded humour and standing up for ones own

    here is a thing….

    …….thank goodness for humour, and I do love sharing a good laugh, but, I am also concerned that, while giving energy to the vitriolic only produces more vitriol, damage also needs repair and damage has been done – we would not be here answering the call of this post otherwise – so , all of the above wisdom most definitley applies and….

    healing is a process that can bring not only resolution and reconciliation, but, understanding also, so long as you are prepared to go into the juice at the heart of the matter – and yes, where it might not always be wise to do so, at times it also is – for (once again) the sake of balance, humour and standing up for ones own…and that includes Jamie and Marina……so, while an unwritten rule of blogging could be that it is better at times to let others step in on ones behalf, heres another (re)post(e) :

    Simply put, this was a loaded debate from the start –

    There was and is no neutral ground on which this debate could take place, either literal, philosphical or pragmatic – it was, by its very nature, divisive – a set up and heres why…..

    there was no attempt made to outline the rules of debate at the outset, which would have made it much more interesting, demanding and productive, instead of descending into a messy free for all, as it did

    if parameters of etiquette had been addressed at the very outset the resulting ‘baiting’ and ‘flaming’ could have been avoided (I have followed the threads), although there are absolutley no guarantees of this over the internet

    as to the attempt at debate – the prosecutor based his argument on a bias of criteria that are both inappropriate and inapplicable to the respondants defense – it is a psuedosceptic’s argument – to remove the bias the prosecutor would have to accept the limitations of his own criteria – in the absence of such acceptance, this bias is indefensible, primarily because it is self referential, as is likely to be the case with most arguments based solely on criterian of a scientifically deterministic nature, despite their merits

    the suitable repost to the challenge is to either walk away, or to meet challenge with challenge, or to turn the opponents energy around (the last two could be delivered as a double whammy)…..

    a possible returned challenge, in this case, would be ‘for the prosecutor to argue the opposite pro/position’, both as evidence of his unbias and proof of his ability to debate – and we’ll come to the third response shortly

    the concession made towards faith, as a way of resolving the argument, whether as admittion of weakness or not, appears benign enough, but, is in reality a poor substitute for resolution as it is questionable if ‘faith’ has anything to do with the (defendant’s) counter argument at all

    All in all, the debate might have been worth having if it had been framed differently – it could have stated a desire for a different outcome, such as one that aimed to produce understanding rather than disproof – in order for this to happen, however, the protagonist would have to be prepared to embrace the dialectics of the unknowable as well as the knowable – he would undoubtedly stand to gain experience through this that could be supportive of his argument – however, it could also both undermine AND refute the grounds of his own argument – that would be both the challenge, and the risk…..for him

    the preferable route for some is to disengage – are we now wrapping this up?

    for others it is to say – lets have the debate properly

    and yet, there is a third alternative, which is to be daring and say – Jason, send us your birth details and we’ll provide a different kind of counter argument……but, that would just be being provocative, wouldn’t it?……

  23. On man, I’d love to see Jason’s chart.

    Jason, erect a natal chart, scan it, and just for fun why not let one of us who isn’t an astrologer have a go at what’s eating you?

    Don’t know how to erect a chart? No ephemeris? You can get one for free at Astro*dienst.

    No joke, it might shed some light on the whole situation.

  24. Jason Thibeault :
    That said, after I post one last pointer to this thread and a cross-post of this comment, I have every intention of letting the matter drop, if you have no intentions of addressing my arguments in lousycanuck.ca/?p=3898

    That post you are referring to you wrote after your original post about my oil spill article. It was the original post which I came to you blog to talk about because it related to my work.

    This article you want me to comment on is about scientifically disproving astrology in general and I don’t want to get into that debate. I really do think it would be wasted energy. I’m just not interesting in going though all you points and then researching counter arguments.

    You originally criticized my oil spill blog and I am willing to keep debating the things you brought up in that one.

    The article you want me to comment talks about astrology I do not use. The only thing you did mention that I use is the Yod aspect pattern, so I will talk about that if you want.

    I wasn’t joking around when I said i am a skeptic like you. I have been debating on astrology forums, networking sites and other astrology blogs about the validity of various styles and techniques used in astrology. I understand the popular image of astrology is what most people read in the sun signs columns. I cringe at this because it does give serious astrologers a credibility problem.

    What I find most intriguing about how our relationship started is that of all the astrology blogs in the world, you picked the one that uses no Sun signs. I can’t represent mainstream astrology and defend it in the blog you want me to comment on. What Marina and I do is rather specialized. We have moved away from Hellenistic based astrology, from which most traditional astrology is based.

    I will talk with you about the astrology I practice, but not the astrology I don’t. Basically I’m just working with the planets and how they aspect each other, and include fixed star interpretations. It’s not the random number generator or whatever you called it. It’s not a pure science, we use the other half of our brain too.

  25. Jason Thibeault :Just say “astrology must be taken on faith” and we part ways. You have my word.

    Like I said just before, astrology is not a pure science. It is a blend of astronomy, mathematics, mythology, psychology and intuition. The unifying feature of all forms of astrology is the astronomy and mathematics, and that is pure science and not a matter of faith. It is that definite and factual starting point from which all the interpretation stems.

  26. If you’d like, I could copy-and-paste the entire comment (which, as I said, was written as a comment then put on my blog), into that DH thread, as I had originally promised. Would it stay intact, or would you reduce it to a link again?

    I won’t cut it down if you post it the oil spill article. I will address some things which relate either to my oil spill post or other things you mentioned which relate to the astrology I use, for example the aspects and the Yod aspect pattern. I won’t be spending much of my time doing that for a while yet as we have this thread going and I have a few readings and other projects to catch up on, not to mention being on “holidays” and looking forward to a boozy BBQ tomorrow.

  27. Sorry, but nobody’s going to get to see my natal chart (unless someone does something pretty creepy and searches that information out, and does it for me, because it shouldn’t be publicly available). The reason I don’t particularly care to do that is, pretty much my entire life story with very very few (and insignificant) exceptions is on my blog. If not there, then in a number of other publicly accessible venues. Most of them under my real name. You could as easily find out all sorts of extremely salient details about my life history and interpret those events into your chart, That would not exactly be the fairest test of your abilities.

    If you really wanted to prove your astrology’s interpretive validity, we could do something completely different. I could find five people’s information, give you one of them without telling them, then get the chart and interpretations and give all five of them the results. I’d then ask them to rate, percentage-wise, how close or accurate they were. If all but one give, say, under 20%, but one gives 85%+, we could call that a “hit”, if that one happens to be the person whose details I gave you. If multiple people rate it highly, or if the hit rates it low, we could call it a miss. I mean, you’d have to trust that I’m not trying to “trap” you somehow, but you have my word.

    This is all, of course, obviated if you’d really rather just debate the predictive (or interpretive, whatever) qualities of astrology per my specific doubts. Because those are what I was REALLY interested in talking about. There’s nothing disingenuous about me or what I want to discuss.

    I’ll wait a bit for reposting that comment. For now, people who want to see it can visit the link. We can revisit after your barbecue. I’m likely to not spend terribly much time online tomorrow either, so fair is fair.

  28. Jason Thibeault :

    As for your post-dictions, while one of your commenters has said over at my place that astrology isn’t used to make predictions, I thought that’s what a natal chart was all about — figuring out what COULD happen, not what DID happen. Since we already know what DID happen. Correct me if I’m wrong, but do your readers not believe that astrology can be used predictively, and do they not expect you to perform readings to exactly that end?

    Astrology can be used to make predictions and I do give that a go, however that is just one use of astrology and it’s not everyone’s cup of tea. I generally only make predictions about mundane events, for example the outcome of an election, or events relating to nations.

    Astrology is also used to look at what did happen, that’s how we learn. Most people who ask for readings are more interested in greater self understanding, which is probably the most important use of astrology. When doing forecasts reports, it is not so much about making predictions of specific events, but describing major themes and issues that are likely to be brought up during a particular period.

    For example, the way the solar eclipse on Sunday aspected my horoscope suggested that a major theme for me at this time would be the relationship with my partner, relationships with open enemies, and personal growth. I knew this was coming for a while so I did some research into the fixed star which this eclipse fell on. I looked at mundane events which had occured over the last century when the slower moving planets were conjunct that star. I also looked at a few natal charts with this star prominent. I came to the conclusion that this star would have a bridge building effect. My thoughts about the influence of this star were confirmed when I looked into the horoscope of David Petraeus who has this star conjunct a planet.

    You might find it an interesting read: “These themes are of cooperation, bridge building, and compromise. All Mercury Venus attributes associated with close partners, whether friend or foe. Finding the “middle” ground.” Fixed Star Wasat – Constellation Gemini

  29. (And yes, I’m broadening everything in my post to include “interpretive” because everyone seems to think astrology, whether Jamie’s brand or otherwise, is not predictive. That’s fine. I just happen to also think it’s useless as an explanatory function post-hoc, because you can interpret the influence of the planets however you want, in order to rationalize something that *already happened*.)

  30. From Rob – ” Simply put, this was a loaded debate from the start – There was and is no neutral ground on which this debate could take place, either literal, philosphical or pragmatic – it was, by its very nature, divisive – a set up and here’s why…..”

    I have to agree there Jamie as I took part in several long sessions online with a variety of sceptics recently on Brian Curry’s site and it was interesting in that it went nowhere! There are different wavelengths each of us are operating on and we rarely get to cross over. Sceptics do usually start with an agenda. Its ‘rip and tear’ I have to say (tear down that is). To Jason’s credit he is quite a deal more reasoned and rational than many sceptics. They often turn out to be rude and insulting and angry to boot.

  31. A couple of years ago, when Saturn first transited Virgo, at the very first stages of my primarily personal and Tarot blog, I was bashed by a couple of ladies. Who did I think I was? My work was no good. Etc, etc, etc. This went on and on in spurts, until fairly recently. And even recently, believe it or not, I had an astrologer (out of all people) and some of his/her cult members (I don’t know– feels like a cult in that astrologer’s space to me, and my Scorpio-Merc isn’t wrong about these things) appear on my blog to tell me how to do “my job”.

    Uh, weeell, if my work was not to their liking, why were they on my blog? Obviously I’ve written something to pique their interest. So they were probably just jealous.

    I feel the same here for you. People will bash perfectly nice individuals as well as all the things and thoughts too far from their narrow-minds. And while I understand how this sort of childishness feels, and I’m sorry that you’re going through it, your writing and your style and your personality in general (which shines through your writing all the time) is going to get through this nonsense.

    You show *them* that you’re better than that crap.

    Signed,
    Deb

  32. Awwww, come on, Jason! Show us your chart!

    Show me your chart I’ll show you mine. B)

    All I would be looking for would be personality characteristics anyway, not life events. I’m certainly no astrologer but I’ll bet I could spot what makes you “tick” and why this is such an issue for you. Might be enlightening, who knows?

    I do have a serious reason for asking. I’m wanting to study transpersonal psychology eventually and a skeptic’s chart that hasn’t already been worked to pieces would be a fascinating study, at least to me.

    No joke, I’ll share my data. I’ve blogged it and anyway, I’ve got 33 first cousins just on my mother’s side. Everybody in the world knows my birth data already.

  33. Jamie..you do an excellent job and just dont give anyone like that the power or to justify anything re what you do..frankly if they dont know what they’re talking about and studied the subject then its none of their business!..I do know… as I used to get into some fiery debates and the like with being a Tarot reader,spiritualist etc over the years but I learnt in the end …to just IGNORE THEM and their small minded ways!!!!(I know..can be difficult! Reminds me of a time when a quietly spoken ministers wife when she found out what I did turned into ALL the FURIES,eyes wild,hair flying,in my face and spitting and telling ME I was in league with the Devil…as I waited for her head to spin!And I was all of 15 at the time!! LOL)..anyway its all good and you will develop a suitably shiny exterior called ‘armour’..maybe like they have on STARGATE where it rolls over one..god,I love those special effects they are great for visualising and put some mirrors on it and then you are good to go! ;D
    Not meaning to be flippant but am in full support of you as you well know by now I hope! And listen to your good woman, man!! When you dont let them get to you it only makes you stronger!
    Keep up the great work! let other things take care of this sort of nonsense! 😀

  34. Interesting discussion, though elements of it evoke a certain deja vu.

    Certain people operate under a pseudo-scientific paradigm. If it can’t be explained by science, then it must be false. Of course the position is ridiculous, but to the person having it, it seems the most rational thing in the world.

    Where is the common ground to even have a conversation?

    Interestingly, I see astrological enthusiasts as being pretty open-minded for the most part. On the other hand, most skeptics appear to repetitively stick their fingers in their ears (I’m being nice) and then don’t really hear what else is being said.

    What the skeptics don’t really realize is that to the enlightened, all their “rationality” comes across as most irrational. Until they’ve actually studied Astrology, how COULD then understand, appreciate, or meaningfully discuss it? It just isn’t possible.

    As for Jason, the easiest “proof” that I would offer (though you likely won’t really understand, I am sorry to say) is that I do a special service in Astrology called rectification. I take the events from a person’s life and their month, day, year, and place of birth and use that information to work “backwards” in order to derive their true birthtime. To help in this, I use a very special program called Polaris. It simply takes the events that were entered, and then scans the complete range of possible birthtime and ranks the birthtimes by HOW WELL THE ASTROLOGY ASPECTS FIT THE EVENTS. With enough events, it finds the birthtime.

    In the case of Ken Haining, he gave me about 18 events from his life… things such as wedding dates, illnesses, etc…. I enter those events into the program and tell it to search for his birthtime. There is no subjectivity involved, as it is a computer program. It does a statistical analysis of how each birthtime (in that range) performs and merely reports the results of those findings… in other words, I have no way of influencing the functioning of the program. Enter events, look at results.

    If there is NOTHING to Astrology, if planets that are millions of miles away from us can NOT influence or illuminate our lives, then tell me, please, HOW is it possible that a piece of software can take the events from someone’s life and give the birthtime. Polaris shows that the highest amount of (appropriate) angular astrological aspects occurs with a birthtime of 12:01:30 pm. Ken has a birth certificate. That birth certificate shows 12:02 pm.

    Let’s think about the odds of that happening ONCE. We have a full day to search. That gives 1,440 minutes of time in which the program COULD say he was born. This means that correctly finding his birthtime BEATS 1439:1 odds against finding it.

    These are relatively high odds to beat, considering that (according to you) the underlying process that it is based on, does not work.

    I come from a strong math and sciences background. (at the Junior Engineering Technical Society TEAMS test, I scored the highest score in the state of Illinois and the 2nd highest score in the whole U.S.) My original foray into astrology was to DISPROVE it. The difference between us, is that logic dictated to me that before I could convincingly argue against something, I had to first understand it. The problem was, it DID work. Early on in my studies, I read for a nice lady, who later had me read to her about her daughter (who I never met). In the chart, the symbols very obviously stated [for Astrologers, there was an intense Saturn (in Leo) square to Mercury in her 6th House] that there was likely some “slowness of mind” relating somehow to her heart. That is exactly how I presented it to the Mother. The Mother informed me that when Rachel (the daughter) was born, the umbilicus had wrapped around her neck and she had gone into cardiac arrest, depriving the brain of oxygen. They brought Rachel out okay, but the oxygen had been cut off long enough that she was born brain-impaired, or “retarded” as her Mother said it. Now, it doesn’t stop there. For Rachel’s Mother, she had always blamed herself, that if she had done this or that, that it wouldn’t have happened. By seeing that it was in fact her daughter’s destiny, SHE NO LONGER CONSTANTLY BLAMED HERSELF for what had happened. In short, a lot of healing for the Mother occurred on that day. As I am a person inclined to care about the suffering of others, I learned on that day, that I can do a lot to help my “Brothers.”

    Astrology works. Faith is a virtue, but not at all necessary in this discussion.

    I can only wish you (assuming you are searching for Truth and not just a justification for your preconceived notions) the good fortune to be able to study and see the true workings of this great science/art of Astrology.

    Ironically, the evidence is there, but instead of having to see something in order to understand it, here it is reversed…you’ll have to understand it before you can even see it.

    Sorry, but science/material mind has to develop eyes before it can see through the veil. [Most skeptics, if they fell on a pin, they’d be blind in both eyes.]

    Peace

    James

  35. @Parin Stormlaughter

    “All I would be looking for would be personality characteristics anyway, not life events.”

    which is precisely why he won’t do it – the implicit threat is character assassination

    although I am not suggesting that this is your motive Parin, it is nevertheless the threat and is meant to remain one as an (unassailable) source of doubt within the ‘opponent’s’ mind until answered – which Jason has – he said “no” – we are required to respect that

    Defamation holds no credibility whatsoever in debate

    If however he were to respond to your offer I would suggest that this would be have to be a personal arrangement between yourselves, not an invitation to a public slaughtering – enough of that already!

    Also, to avoid prejudice in your studies, a degree of anonimity of your subjects as source material would greatly enhance your findings

    however, this does not rule out the possibility of this particular challenge being met in some way shape or form – it is also an attempt to move the argument on……

  36. George W. :

    I am a regular reader over at Jason’s blog. I can attest to the fact that if you had not commented on his post, I would have been more than happy to just leave it at that. I may have thought “Wow, those astrologers are crazy folks”, but I would not have cared one way or the other to investigate further.

    This is just astounding. You are happy to believe what Jason writes about someones elses work in a field neither of you have studied. Have a laugh and kick it around a bit, but if the author of the work objects then then you all get upset.

  37. George W. : I think that the service you offer your clients, although solicited by them and consented to, is nothing more than entertainment, a parlour game of little value; I don’t like it because those people believe that what you are doing is valuable and of greater worth than simple entertainment. I understand that the vague advice you offer your clients is mostly harmless, maybe even good and useful. It’s the premise under which you offer it that I take issue with.

    You know absolutely nothing about the advice I give my clients yet you make a statement like this? You don’t like something you have never seen? You have exhibited no logic.

  38. Tsilikat :

    hello

    this kind of attack makes you stronger (in your belief, on your line)

    Very true, I do believe things happen for a reason.

  39. Thor :

    Denouncing something without a fair and open discussion is neither helpful or enlightened.

    Thanks for those links Thor, I just found your comment in the spam. It seems when there are more than one or two links In a comment they get read as spam.

    A Facebook friend suggested a quote from a scientist who was responding to harrassement about his belief in astrology:

    “I have studied the matter, sir, and you have not” Sir Isaac Newton.

  40. I guess this guy, Jason, doesn’t quite grasp the reality that, in this day and age, a simple Google search is very efficient in providing one with birth details among other pieces of information. Seriously, all one has to do to find information on someone else is do a quickie Google search. That simple. No research or stalking involved. Nothing creepy about how helpful Google is and, if it is used with the proper intentions, such as while looking up references for schoolwork, the search engine can be magical.

    It’s just the way the internet operates in 2010.

    Perhaps when Jason grows up, he’ll be able to deal with it. And maybe he’ll learn that if he doesn’t agree with something, he doesn’t have to be constipated about it.

  41. Since you ask, I think you should have just ignored them. I certainly wouldn’t have included any links that would send traffic to their site. That is what they want. To increase the visibility of their own site by slamming others,

  42. Dear Marina & Jamie,

    Leave it to the ‘scientific’ types to crash the party and try to ruin it for everyone. They are so bereft of spirit and heart and we all know that ‘misery likes company’.

    Just keep on keepin’ on and don’t let this guy ruin your vacation.

    Love you both xoxo D.

  43. Hey…like they say in Hollywood” good publicity? bad publicity? who cares b/c its still out there in the public eye!

    Thanks for the “witch hunt” monologue! On a side note, the b/f and I are planning to spend Halloween up in Salem, Mass this year! Should be intertesting…

  44. Rob, you cut me to the quick. XD

    This further illustrates some of the ignorance surrounding astrology as a study.

    You can read everything I’ve said yet think I need a horoscope to back up any observation of the obvious??? You have far more faith in astrology than I have!

    A trained, competent astrologer’s analysis of MY chart would reassure your suspicious mind. I’m a Sagittarius Sun, Taurus Ascendant with Venus in 10th conjunct Midheaven. I’ve got about as much evil intent as the sweetest partying girlfriend you ever had. Never mind my Scorpio Moon.

  45. @Parin Stormlaughter

    Sorry darlin – didn’t mean to cut you…..but, Parin!

    Hey, you know, I too would just love to see Jason have the courage of his own convictions and take up the Natal challenge – not, as you say, that we need to see the chart, but, how revealing WOULD the very process be…..we can only wonder – if he had the courage of his own convictions he might be prepared to make himself the subject of them, especially if he sincerely felt there was nothing in astrology, that it was all bunk – your bluff is called Jason

    But, Parin, I was mis-reading your enthusiasm towards the idea, however, and meant no offense – as for the unsolicited advice (…minefield!) – arrogant derrr that I can sometimes be!!

    yeah, I will own my own supicious mind, and my dark shadow (Scorp Asc conj. 12ho. NN + IC Lilith opp. Pluto + need I go on….), but, having said that, I am no astrologer – at least, I do not see clients as one, but, I do love astrology and feel at home exploring intuitive mundane interpretation – I tend to divine charts more than analyse them – my main thing is a kind of divination that rests on ‘technologies of spirit’, whose form does not have a common name, but which originated in the form that I practice in Africa – I inherited it, came back here (this life) with it, have been initiated into it – in its main form it also works with a symbolic language and on a circular map of the cosmos, just like astrology – there are many, many correspondences, and I feel a kinship here – the reason I mention this is…..

    to my mind, and this is an argument that I would put to Jason, I have and continue to study as much of the workings of astrology as I can (you have to keep an open mind – there is no end) and, after all this it is not the knowledge that makes it work – the mundane technology that has its mechanistic basis is the lense through which the light of knowing shines – that light shines in some more strongly than in others – also, where this is sourced will vary from person to person and practice to practice – you cannot quantify this or necessarily give it a name – but, it works

    However, the real currency and measure of my practice and that , I supsect, of practicing astrologers everywhere, is in the stories that people bring back – I have found these to be astonishing, confirming and downright wonderfull – they are where your proof is if proof be needed – yes, its subjective, but, you’d get over it if you let yourself – a good first step is working with an astrologer – I can recommend some excellent ones

  46. @Jamie Funk
    Thanks, Jamie. We live in an interesting time, when a whole world of information and views is at our fingertips. This is opening up new possibilities for astrologers in gathering information and presenting the case for astrology and helping each other with feedback. I’m of the view that astrology can only be proven with the ceaseless struggle to refine its predictive methods. Too many astrologers seem to have given up with predictions and use astrology mainly as some form of “intuition enhancer”. In my view, that is not the right way forward. The task is to apply techniques by making predictions. When a technique doesn´t work in prediction it also doesn’t work in interpretation and should be discarded and new techniques tested and adopted when they work. That is the sensible way forward. The fact tha you are making predictions is good. You also no longer use the signs of the tropical zodiac in your work and that is an auspicious start! I’ve long since adopted the visible sidereal zodiac and the ancient horoscopic methods with good results. My historical research has recently been focused on where exactly astrology in Europe took a wrong evolutionary turn a long, long time ago – with the tropical zodiac being adopted. Cheers,
    cosmologer.blogspot.com/2010/07/ptolemys-mistake-and-origin-of-western.html

  47. You mean none of the regular readers over on Jason’s blog or their close friends and family have ever consulted an astrologer even just for fun? Not only do I find that incredibly hard to believe, I find it incredibly boring. Close-minded people who not only can’t deal with the unknown, but find the only strength they can in touting this position lock-step. Yawn. How would you like to be one of this guy’s readers who happens to have an open-mind when it comes to astrology or who happened to like Jamie’s article? To be in a position to either hide/suppress your interests and views because the leader of the pack is on his bully-pulpit and needs someone or something to direct his own insecurities at, or to altogether leave a forum you also enjoy? Sad.

    Jamie may not be the only injured party here.

  48. Well it will be interesting to see what Neptune in Pisces brings is 2012, rational thought upon which all science is based has been discredited by Chaos theory, which simply states that everything is determined by some natural law however we as simple humans have not yet discovered all those laws and thus some things happen according to rules which are beyond our understanding.

    If it scares some people to have to accept that they do not know everything and that some things are beyond their control then a dismissive reaction is not only to be expected but is perfectly understandable.

    Do you trust your doctor 100% when he tells you what is wrong with you, or a better example, do you trust that a lawyer is acting entirely on your side without an eye to the money he is earning? They are both conflicted with the same human fraility. Is the expert who prepares a report worried about the ‘truth’ or the fee he is getting from the person who wants him to advise a certain way.

    Astrology may not be 100% accurate, probably because there is more that we simple humans don’t understand than do, but there is more truth in it that an eigth grade chemistry lesson, which is simplified to the point of falsehood, so as not to confuse the students.

    Anyway Jamie, don’t feed the trolls and keep up the good work!

Leave a Reply